[TUC SPOILERS] Who has the worst fate in the series?

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Likaro

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« on: August 08, 2017, 06:42:30 pm »
Bakker is really good at providing horrifying and grisly demises for many of his characters. Who do you think had the worst fate?

(Let's forget that most people in Earwa qualify as you have only like a 4% chance you aren't going to hell)

Number one on the list has to be poor Proyas. This guy really was put through the mill.

Through the Holy War he had his faith and resilience tested many, many times. He was broken when he ordered the execution of Kellhus and his subsequent conversion to Team Kellhus.

Then you have the whole Ordeal segment. He has his faith shattered by his prophet, he gets raped by his prophet. He has to lead the Ordeal on the worst leg of the march,

becoming a Sranc-mad cannibal in the process. An to top it off he is then betrayed yet again by Kellhus, who turns him into the badly needed scapegoat the Ordeal needs to

continue.

He is hung in wrappings and humiliated before the whole Ordeal. The final indignity is he is then suffocated by his nephew.

Awful.

(Btw, where is Akka when that whole thing goes down in the tent with the Scylvendi? I thought Akka was right there, seems very odd he would just peace out and leave Proyas there when he was so frantic to save his life??)

Perhaps the only character to me that competes with Proyas in terms of misery is Nau-Cayuti.

This guy was a badass and a hero. Yet he ends up being betrayed by his mistress and sold down the river to the Consult. He is taken into Golgotterath and subjected to untold torture/rape/horror. Then he gets exposed to the Inverse Fire and stuffed into the Carapace, the ultimate betrayal to his cause.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2017, 07:41:26 pm »
It's interesting how many people here share this "poor Proyas" sentiment. I myself consider him a disgusting self-righteous bigot who in the end got what he deserved morally and actually better than he deserved physically. Dying strung up or being thrown to Sranc suited him far better than being sent off by someone who cared about him. Though I do think the way it went down is easier for Moenghus.

But then I don't really like any character in the series. Kellhus dies because of his miscalculation one step away from his goal? Great, though should have happened much, much sooner. Kelmomas gets stuffed into the Carapace? Perfect, good riddance. Saubon goes to Hell? So he should. Cnaiur is taken for a ride by Ajokli and dies still carrying his unfulfilled grudge? Fitting end for a violent psychopath. Great Ordeal is damned and then butchered? Can't say I care.

Achamian and Esmenet just aren't sympathetic to me. They're good people at the core, but put in the circumstances where being good kills those you love while you watch. And they stand for it. Human, but also not at all attractive. Of course, it's exactly the point, don't get me wrong, I understand that.

Mimara is, I'm in agreement with Serwa here, crazy. Serwe (the first one) is simply uninteresting in my eyes. Beautiful, but vain and not really bright. Though the way she was treated all her life is horrible and I feel extremely sorry for her.

The closest I get to liking someone in the Second Apocalypse is Anasurimbor Serwa. And even then in a very specific sense of the word "like". I don't think I would associate myself with her in real life, for example. She is, after all, Dunyain, which makes her ruthless, manipulative, and a firm believer in "the ends justify the means" maxim. Unlike her father, she does seem to snap out of it when people she cares about are going to die, but it doesn't happen very often and leaves room for a much less noble interpretation of her character. She does inflict lots of wounds in lower pressure environments, that's for certain.

I'm very sad about Theliopa, but she was also Dunyain, exposing her actual self so rarely it was hard to consider her a genuine character as opposed to a part of scenery when she appeared "on screen".

So it seems I'm here for the story, setting, and themes, not for characters. Strange, but then again, I've seen stranger.
 
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 03:19:41 am by SmilerLoki »

H

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« Reply #2 on: August 08, 2017, 07:44:37 pm »
The only person I ever felt anything for was Theli after it was revealed what Inrilatas had done to her in her youth.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Woden

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« Reply #3 on: August 08, 2017, 07:57:12 pm »
Excellent dissection, Smilerloki.  ;D
Know what your slaves believe, and you will always be their master.

Walter

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« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2017, 07:59:04 pm »
Gotta be Proyas, for me.  He believed in Kellhus as much as it is possible for a human to do, and was betrayed as comprehensively as it is possible to be.

Likaro

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« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2017, 08:03:47 pm »
Well...yeah many of the characters are unsympathetic, tis true, but I have sympathy for a few of them.

Akka for sure. Esmi to a degree. Even Kellhus, I feel a bit sad for.

Perhaps this speaks to another issue- one of the flaws I see with the series is it is unrelentingly dark and grim. A few moments of joy and fun would have gone a long way in making Earwa seem worth fighting for.

At least in the PON there were some funny moments of levity and friendship (in between the religious slaughter and mayhem, that is)

Walter

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« Reply #6 on: August 08, 2017, 08:04:53 pm »
Malowebi gives an 'I have no mouth and I must scream' vibe.  Strapped to a statue's hip for all time.  Yikes.

Curse Likaro!

Likaro

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« Reply #7 on: August 08, 2017, 08:07:52 pm »
Forgot about good ol' Malowebi. That is indeed a horrible fate. Especially if he is trapped in that head for years upon years.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #8 on: August 08, 2017, 08:14:39 pm »
Excellent dissection, Smilerloki.  ;D
Thank you!
Perhaps this speaks to another issue- one of the flaws I see with the series is it is unrelentingly dark and grim.
I don't think there is something to be done here considering Bakker's stated goals and aspirations for the series.


Woden

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« Reply #9 on: August 08, 2017, 08:19:09 pm »
Malowebi gives an 'I have no mouth and I must scream' vibe.  Strapped to a statue's hip for all time.  Yikes.

Curse Likaro!

And with all those sranc nearby he will problably end like a sextoy.
Know what your slaves believe, and you will always be their master.

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2017, 08:28:38 pm »
Forgot about good ol' Malowebi. That is indeed a horrible fate. Especially if he is trapped in that head for years upon years.

It's a horrible fate in a reality where Hell isn't an alternative.  Time spent trapped in that head is time not spent in Hell. 

Proyas and Saubon are both representative of everyone Kellhus has analyzed, exploited, used, and discarded.  Proyas is self righteous and judgemental but he's also the man who would take no more water than his men when dying of thirst in the desert and shows compassion for the weak while much of Saubon's damage is from being raised by an abusive father and being haunted by the need to try and measure up to the harsh standards of a wicked tyrant.  The accomplish great things and, like everyone else, are discarded without thought or gratitude the moment it is advantageous to do so.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #11 on: August 08, 2017, 09:05:04 pm »
I don't understand how you could possibly enjoy a story when you hate every character. But I've been told my sympathies are strange.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #12 on: August 08, 2017, 09:24:02 pm »
I don't understand how you could possibly enjoy a story when you hate every character. But I've been told my sympathies are strange.
My experience is, characters are not necessarily that important. Sympathizing them, even less so. For example, I enjoyed House's (of "House M.D." fame) antics, though after watching the entire show I genuinely consider him a horrible person.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 09:38:49 pm by SmilerLoki »

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #13 on: August 08, 2017, 09:25:48 pm »
It's funny, I always hated the Kelmomas chapters in previous books. Thought he was insufferable and I had to slog through the chapters, but in the end I actually felt sympathy for him, poor little murderous guy screaming for his mom as uncaring monsters stuff him into the black Carapace. Really made me appreciate him, in hindsight.
As for the worst fate, I don't know. Maybe Serwë, except at least she got to be happy being Kellhus' wife for a bit after all the rape and abuse, before being stabbed and subsequently burning in Hell forever.

Swayal Serpent

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« Reply #14 on: August 09, 2017, 02:13:08 am »
Forgot about good ol' Malowebi. That is indeed a horrible fate. Especially if he is trapped in that head for years upon years.

It's a horrible fate in a reality where Hell isn't an alternative.  Time spent trapped in that head is time not spent in Hell. 

Proyas and Saubon are both representative of everyone Kellhus has analyzed, exploited, used, and discarded.  Proyas is self righteous and judgemental but he's also the man who would take no more water than his men when dying of thirst in the desert and shows compassion for the weak while much of Saubon's damage is from being raised by an abusive father and being haunted by the need to try and measure up to the harsh standards of a wicked tyrant.  The accomplish great things and, like everyone else, are discarded without thought or gratitude the moment it is advantageous to do so.

I think this is an excellent representat ion. Proyas spent his entire life trying to do the right thing, and in his mind, all the murder and bigotry was for the greater good. He hated all of the bloodshed (I think it was stated in TWLW that he wept upon hearing that thousands of women and children were murdered in Ainon), but he really believed he was saving the world, and that the ends justified the means.  Though Saubon on other hand, isn't all that sympathetic to me. He only does things for himself, and he just acts like a dick most of the time. I don't think he deserved what he got, but he's just not a nice guy. As for the worst fate, I kind of think Aurang got a raw deal. He was literally hours away from his salvation, but then Kellhus destroys him in an instant. He's seen the inverse fire, has spent ages fearing death and damnnation, but in the end, all his efforts were for nothing, and he gets sent to the deepest pits of hell