[TUC SPOILERS] Who has the worst fate in the series?

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Dora Vee

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« Reply #75 on: November 04, 2017, 10:24:29 pm »
 
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He made woman equal to men.

I found no evidence of that except with witches and what Proyas claimed. Honestly, I think it was only done for the Ordeal and once that succeeded, what then? I bet the women would end up "back in the kitchen".

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Made the treatment of slaves a lot better. I know, slavery is still bad, but its something.

It was repealed after rioting from Yatwer followers. Not impressed.

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But, what if it was where you lived?

Honestly, I'd probably still want everything to disappear. I think that there are people on that world who feel that way. But, that's just me.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2017, 11:02:09 pm by Dora Vee »
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MSJ

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« Reply #76 on: November 04, 2017, 11:51:14 pm »
Quote from: Dora Vee
I found no evidence of that except with witches and what Proyas claimed. Honestly, I think it was only done for the Ordeal and once that succeeded, what then? I bet the women would end up "back in the kitchen".

Its in the glossary, it was more than just the ability to become a sorcerer. Gave them the ability to won land and inherit.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Madness

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« Reply #77 on: November 05, 2017, 03:24:49 am »
Quote from: Dora Vee
I found no evidence of that except with witches and what Proyas claimed. Honestly, I think it was only done for the Ordeal and once that succeeded, what then? I bet the women would end up "back in the kitchen".

Its in the glossary, it was more than just the ability to become a sorcerer. Gave them the ability to won land and inherit.

Also, this is somewhat analogous to feminism as it evolved after the second world war especially - we're so young that that may have been one of the first times that womankind prevalently (there were plenty of woman-led societies and cultures preceding us) got a taste of agency and they wouldn't (and shouldn't) go back.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #78 on: November 06, 2017, 05:49:19 pm »
Btw, this is just an FYI for the sake of information. Using Bakker's words to explain in book phenomenon is dubious and defeats the fun.

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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #79 on: November 06, 2017, 06:10:01 pm »
I must say, this is fairly consistent with the way I see Kellhus and the Dunyain worldview in general.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #80 on: November 06, 2017, 06:37:45 pm »
Yeah, but does he mean personally ( ever becoming the more powerful sorcerer ) or politically ( ever becoming more dominant over humanity )?
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Wilshire

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« Reply #81 on: November 06, 2017, 08:23:01 pm »
I must say, this is fairly consistent with the way I see Kellhus and the Dunyain worldview in general.
Yup.

Yeah, but does he mean personally ( ever becoming the more powerful sorcerer ) or politically ( ever becoming more dominant over humanity )?
Neither. Power for power. Or, you could say, both/all, though that's not quite correct as it misses the point. Means without ends. Like a machine, he just does.
Edit: Or, like a place, it simply is.
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Yellow

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« Reply #82 on: November 07, 2017, 09:03:26 am »
You could argue that this still serves as an end, though. The Dunyain seek to obtain a mastery over circumstance, and do this by seeking the power with which to do so. It's just that the end is never reached, because there are always more circumstances out of reach.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #83 on: November 07, 2017, 09:55:01 am »
You could argue that this still serves as an end, though. The Dunyain seek to obtain a mastery over circumstance, and do this by seeking the power with which to do so. It's just that the end is never reached, because there are always more circumstances out of reach.
I have trouble to see it as an end precisely because of your last statement. You can formulate it the way you propose, sure, but I have doubts about it having much value for the sake of understanding.

MSJ

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« Reply #84 on: November 07, 2017, 10:53:18 am »
Okay, so what does Earwa become if the No-God achieves shutting the Outside? No Gods, what is there to obtain or conquer after that? ( Again I'm firmly in the Shae is Dunsult camp)

What happens if once the number is reached, and they (humans) repopulate, does the Outside connect again?

Why would a mere handful of people want a world to themselves?

These are things that no one discusses and quite frankly make no sense to me at all. Especially the extermination of the human race for Dunsult, Aurax and a handful of Nonmen.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #85 on: November 07, 2017, 11:25:00 am »
Okay, so what does Earwa become if the No-God achieves shutting the Outside? No Gods, what is there to obtain or conquer after that? ( Again I'm firmly in the Shae is Dunsult camp)

What happens if once the number is reached, and they (humans) repopulate, does the Outside connect again?

Why would a mere handful of people want a world to themselves?

These are things that no one discusses and quite frankly make no sense to me at all. Especially the extermination of the human race for Dunsult, Aurax and a handful of Nonmen.
I feel like those are plot-related things (in the sense of being fictional analogies and devices to help Bakker explain - and maybe even formulate - his views), and thus it all comes down to this:
There's no real world sense to be made of this: the Absolute, the unconditioned condition, is chimerical, a kind of cognitive perpetual motion machine. So fictionally speaking, the question is what kind of plausibility tales can you cook up. The Mutilated go pure objectivity, sapience absent sentience, while Kellhus goes pure subjectivity, sentience absent sapience. Press in either direction, and you trip into conceptual crash space, which is why all philosophical investigation of the theme remains mired in endless disputation.