(spoilers all) General Questions

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robizeratul

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« on: August 10, 2017, 08:10:39 pm »
1)What's up with the Bashrag ?Unlike the Sranc, they are not lust/food obsessed. How are they controlled? Not a lot was revealed about them...
 
2)Why did only Quya mages join the battle and what happened to them after? What where the Tall and Ishroi doing?
 
3)Where did the big dragon go from Sauglish? I thought he ran to Golgoterath.

Tythus

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« Reply #1 on: October 04, 2017, 03:35:45 am »
1)What's up with the Bashrag ?Unlike the Sranc, they are not lust/food obsessed. How are they controlled? Not a lot was revealed about them...
 
2)Why did only Quya mages join the battle and what happened to them after? What where the Tall and Ishroi doing?
 
3)Where did the big dragon go from Sauglish? I thought he ran to Golgoterath.
Some of these things I wondered myself, Especially 2 and 3

Duskweaver

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« Reply #2 on: October 04, 2017, 07:13:41 am »
The answer to #2 might be as mundane as the sky-walking Quya just arrived ahead of those who had to trudge along on the ground.
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

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« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2017, 11:58:25 am »
1)What's up with the Bashrag ?Unlike the Sranc, they are not lust/food obsessed. How are they controlled? Not a lot was revealed about them...

Well, I think they are less intelligent than Sranc.  As such, I'm pretty sure they are docile in the sense that they are probably enslaved to violence.  As long as you keep giving them things to kill, they are probably pretty "easy" to keep in line.

2)Why did only Quya mages join the battle and what happened to them after? What where the Tall and Ishroi doing?

Like DW says, flying is a lot faster than walking.  Then again, we don't know how many, or even if any, Ishroi or Tall survived.

3)Where did the big dragon go from Sauglish? I thought he ran to Golgoterath.

Wuttešt, as Bakker has said, is not just "another dragon."  He is the original dragon.  As such, I don't think he is enslaved to the Consult in the same way the rest would be.  Also, I think he is (for the most part) more intelligent, although Skafra seemed pretty articulate himself.  Presumably he had reasons for not being in Golgotterath in the first place and staying in Sauglish.  Perhaps those reasons kept him from returning there again, after fleeing the Library.  I mean, Skuthula sure does seem like a fucking jerk, so I can't say I'd blame Wuttešt for not wanting that as a roommate. 
ďI am a warrior of ages, AnasŻrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.Ē -Cetíingira

Sausuna

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« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2017, 12:10:35 pm »
Bashrag have souls as well, right?

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« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2017, 12:19:46 pm »
Bashrag have souls as well, right?

I very much doubt that, as they are (presumably) based off the same plans that created Sranc, just in triplicate.
ďI am a warrior of ages, AnasŻrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.Ē -Cetíingira

profgrape

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« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2017, 12:37:23 pm »
1)What's up with the Bashrag ?Unlike the Sranc, they are not lust/food obsessed. How are they controlled? Not a lot was revealed about them...

Well, I think they are less intelligent than Sranc.  As such, I'm pretty sure they are docile in the sense that they are probably enslaved to violence.  As long as you keep giving them things to kill, they are probably pretty "easy" to keep in line.

2)Why did only Quya mages join the battle and what happened to them after? What where the Tall and Ishroi doing?

Like DW says, flying is a lot faster than walking.  Then again, we don't know how many, or even if any, Ishroi or Tall survived.

3)Where did the big dragon go from Sauglish? I thought he ran to Golgoterath.

Wuttešt, as Bakker has said, is not just "another dragon."  He is the original dragon.  As such, I don't think he is enslaved to the Consult in the same way the rest would be.  Also, I think he is (for the most part) more intelligent, although Skafra seemed pretty articulate himself.  Presumably he had reasons for not being in Golgotterath in the first place and staying in Sauglish.  Perhaps those reasons kept him from returning there again, after fleeing the Library.  I mean, Skuthula sure does seem like a fucking jerk, so I can't say I'd blame Wuttešt for not wanting that as a roommate. 

On the fate of the Tall, the Glossary entry for Oirunas has his life ending in 4132 (present day). So I presume he died in battle at Ishterebinth. 

Sausuna

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« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2017, 12:58:34 pm »
Bashrag have souls as well, right?

I very much doubt that, as they are (presumably) based off the same plans that created Sranc, just in triplicate.
I'll have to search back, I'm not sure why I had that impression, as though it was discussed in TJE when we see the first Bashrag. But looked at TGO, it does mention they were made around a 'soulless pit', so maybe that was the language I was recalling.

And says they wait with the patience of the soulless. Maybe I was thinking of Wracu?

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2017, 01:59:17 pm »
1)What's up with the Bashrag ?Unlike the Sranc, they are not lust/food obsessed. How are they controlled? Not a lot was revealed about them...

Well, I think they are less intelligent than Sranc.  As such, I'm pretty sure they are docile in the sense that they are probably enslaved to violence.  As long as you keep giving them things to kill, they are probably pretty "easy" to keep in line.

2)Why did only Quya mages join the battle and what happened to them after? What where the Tall and Ishroi doing?

Like DW says, flying is a lot faster than walking.  Then again, we don't know how many, or even if any, Ishroi or Tall survived.

3)Where did the big dragon go from Sauglish? I thought he ran to Golgoterath.

Wuttešt, as Bakker has said, is not just "another dragon."  He is the original dragon.  As such, I don't think he is enslaved to the Consult in the same way the rest would be.  Also, I think he is (for the most part) more intelligent, although Skafra seemed pretty articulate himself.  Presumably he had reasons for not being in Golgotterath in the first place and staying in Sauglish.  Perhaps those reasons kept him from returning there again, after fleeing the Library.  I mean, Skuthula sure does seem like a fucking jerk, so I can't say I'd blame Wuttešt for not wanting that as a roommate.
Actually I think Bashrags are more intelligent. Somewhere between Sranc and skin-spies. Can't imagine a Sranc asking itself "Where were the Old Fathers?". Their lust for violence also seems much more reined in than Sranc, and they can be used for subterranean ambushes.

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« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2017, 02:01:09 pm »
I'll have to search back, I'm not sure why I had that impression, as though it was discussed in TJE when we see the first Bashrag. But looked at TGO, it does mention they were made around a 'soulless pit', so maybe that was the language I was recalling.

And says they wait with the patience of the soulless. Maybe I was thinking of Wracu?

Well, that isn't really clear either.  Wuttešt clearly has a soul, but the derivative Wracu are not clearly souled.  There is a good case to be made for either side: souled, to better enslave them, a la the Inchoroi themselves; not souled, to be controled by the No-God the same as Sranc and Bashrags.  We do have minor accentual evidence that the Wracu were controlled by the No-God, so I guess you can count that in favor of soullessness.

If I had bet, I'd say that Wracu are not souled beings.
ďI am a warrior of ages, AnasŻrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.Ē -Cetíingira

Madness

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« Reply #10 on: October 04, 2017, 04:52:53 pm »
3)Where did the big dragon go from Sauglish? I thought he ran to Golgoterath.

Wuttešt, as Bakker has said, is not just "another dragon."  He is the original dragon.  As such, I don't think he is enslaved to the Consult in the same way the rest would be.  Also, I think he is (for the most part) more intelligent, although Skafra seemed pretty articulate himself.  Presumably he had reasons for not being in Golgotterath in the first place and staying in Sauglish.  Perhaps those reasons kept him from returning there again, after fleeing the Library.  I mean, Skuthula sure does seem like a fucking jerk, so I can't say I'd blame Wuttešt for not wanting that as a roommate. 

I'll have to search back, I'm not sure why I had that impression, as though it was discussed in TJE when we see the first Bashrag. But looked at TGO, it does mention they were made around a 'soulless pit', so maybe that was the language I was recalling.

And says they wait with the patience of the soulless. Maybe I was thinking of Wracu?

Well, that isn't really clear either.  Wuttešt clearly has a soul, but the derivative Wracu are not clearly souled.  There is a good case to be made for either side: souled, to better enslave them, a la the Inchoroi themselves; not souled, to be controled by the No-God the same as Sranc and Bashrags.  We do have minor accentual evidence that the Wracu were controlled by the No-God, so I guess you can count that in favor of soullessness.

If I had bet, I'd say that Wracu are not souled beings.

A couple things to parse:

- I do think Wutteat is the "original," as per Bakker's analogies regarding breeding Wracu like apples and the French "metre." I'm of the opinion that Wutteat is a creature the Inchoroi picked up along the way and that Wracu are perversions of its Bios as much as Sranc are of the Nonmen.
         - However, I still think Wutteat harkens to the call of the No-God (as per his still unresolved commentary to Achamian and Nil'giccas regarding the Black Heavens or even further hints like the TWP Dream where Skuthula tells Seswatha that the No-God has tasted Celmomas' passing and the Mutilated comment about the No-God reading the code of Earwa from the barcodes of one dying soul at a time, or whichevery). Thinking on it now perhaps the Boding is simply the flip-side or side-effect of the No-God's control of the Weapon-Races.
- Wutteat might have been blinded before or at Mengedda and absent the No-God he flew and flew and found only more dead world, as he tells it. Stumbles upon Sauglish, recognizing the sense (or scent but who fuck knows about how an undead Dragon perceives the world) of its destruction, knows of the Library and the Coffers, crawls in to wait for the world to die.
          - Though big ol' lol at the Skuthula roommate comment, especially given the opinions of the Millipede-Wracu other places.
- As per above, Wutteat doesn't really seem to count as a Weapon-Race and Simas (unless the Mutilated have figured out how to replicate that monstrosity) was one of a kind (though, damn - if I thought Bakker was aware of it anymore - a Skin-Spy School would be right in line with a bunch of the latter Dune series stuff ;)). All other creatures of the Tekne are soulless, as per my reading.
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 04:55:06 pm by Madness »
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« Reply #11 on: October 04, 2017, 05:09:39 pm »
A couple things to parse:

- I do think Wutteat is the "original," as per Bakker's analogies regarding breeding Wracu like apples and the French "metre." I'm of the opinion that Wutteat is a creature the Inchoroi picked up along the way and that Wracu are perversions of its Bios as much as Sranc are of the Nonmen.

Agree, although I do think that Wuttešt might have received "upgrades" via grafting or just straight augmentation.  Also, it's unclear if Wracu's metallic bones are "natural" or something augmented after the fact.

- However, I still think Wutteat harkens to the call of the No-God (as per his still unresolved commentary to Achamian and Nil'giccas regarding the Black Heavens or even further hints like the TWP Dream where Skuthula tells Seswatha that the No-God has tasted Celmomas' passing and the Mutilated comment about the No-God reading the code of Earwa from the barcodes of one dying soul at a time, or whichevery). Thinking on it now perhaps the Boding is simply the flip-side or side-effect of the No-God's control of the Weapon-Races.

Well, I think Wuttešt, like an Inchoroi "worships" the No-God, but is not commanded the same way a Sranc or Bashrag would be.  He is, after all, souled, in a way they are not.  Which, to me, speaks to him being more Inchoroi-like than Sranc-like.

(Also, it was Skafra, not Skuthula who speaks to Seswatha, but you knew that.)

- Wutteat might have been blinded before or at Mengedda and absent the No-God he flew and flew and found only more dead world, as he tells it. Stumbles upon Sauglish, recognizing the sense (or scent but who fuck knows about how an undead Dragon perceives the world) of its destruction, knows of the Library and the Coffers, crawls in to wait for the world to die.

Yeah, I mean, presumably there are only so many places a dragon can fit itself into.  And, since Golgotterath was seemingly off the table, the Library probably seemed a good option.  Also, indeed, I think Wuttešt was probably well aware it's location before fleeing to there.

- Though big ol' lol at the Skuthula roommate comment, especially given the opinions of the Millipede-Wracu other places.

I do wonder why Skuthula is such a fuck-wit.  Wuttešt and Skafra are pretty articulate, so perhaps there was a diminishing quality in the replication process.

- As per above, Wutteat doesn't really seem to count as a Weapon-Race and Simas (unless the Mutilated have figured out how to replicate that monstrosity) was one of a kind (though, damn - if I thought Bakker was aware of it anymore - a Skin-Spy School would be right in line with a bunch of the latter Dune series stuff ;)). All other creatures of the Tekne are soulless, as per my reading.

Yeah, I think Wuttešt is wholly unique and I hope we see him again in TNG at some point.
ďI am a warrior of ages, AnasŻrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.Ē -Cetíingira

Madness

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« Reply #12 on: October 04, 2017, 05:18:07 pm »
Agree, although I do think that Wuttešt might have received "upgrades" via grafting or just straight augmentation.  Also, it's unclear if Wracu's metallic bones are "natural" or something augmented after the fact.

Indeed.

Well, I think Wuttešt, like an Inchoroi "worships" the No-God, but is not commanded the same way a Sranc or Bashrag would be.  He is, after all, souled, in a way they are not.  Which, to me, speaks to him being more Inchoroi-like than Sranc-like.

Indeed :).

(Also, it was Skafra, not Skuthula who speaks to Seswatha, but you knew that.)

Lol, what fool am I?! And I can basically quote that scene to myself because I always thought it was so badass...

Yeah, I mean, presumably there are only so many places a dragon can fit itself into.  And, since Golgotterath was seemingly off the table, the Library probably seemed a good option.  Also, indeed, I think Wuttešt was probably well aware it's location before fleeing to there.

My point was just that navigating as a blind Wracu without the No-God can't be easy. And now Achamian and Nil'giccas rendered the poor bastard deaf too as a parting gift from Sauglish... though, I suspect he smiled a big undead Dragon smile when he felt the No-God again.

Might be a little surprised by his new human masters... or Shauriatas' new clothes... or both, whatever ;).

I do wonder why Skuthula is such a fuck-wit.  Wuttešt and Skafra are pretty articulate, so perhaps there was a diminishing quality in the replication process.

Maybe? Though, I mean... Skuthula might be a purposeful dig at old timey tales, myth, fiction, etc, etc. I mean at some time there was a supposed tradition of Dragons only wanting virgin maidens or whathaveyou.

I second this idea that Skuthula is shunned by other Wracu ;).

Yeah, I think Wuttešt is wholly unique and I hope we see him again in TNG at some point.

It seems likely that we'll see all the lost Wracu return?
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« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2017, 10:27:32 am »
It seems likely that we'll see all the lost Wracu return?

Only two are unaccounted for: as per my updated list here but one of those is dead in the Black Halls.

(I just realized that thread is in the WLW section.  Advice on where to split it maybe?)
ďI am a warrior of ages, AnasŻrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.Ē -Cetíingira

Madness

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« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2017, 04:26:58 pm »
It seems likely that we'll see all the lost Wracu return?

Only two are unaccounted for: as per my updated list here but one of those is dead in the Black Halls.

(I just realized that thread is in the WLW section.  Advice on where to split it maybe?)

Well, two unaccounted of those we have reference to/names for ;).

Uh... maybe just make a new thread in TNG or GE (since it's not content specific to TUC, necessarily).

EDIT: You know, going forward it seems almost certain that we should see some mundane person kill a Dragon a la Nau-Cayuti?
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
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