Nonman/Human Hybrids

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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« on: August 13, 2017, 06:02:54 pm »
Today I was browsing the older threads about TSA at westeros.org when I came across a mention of a Bakker AMA from April of this year. There is a reply on there where Bakker states that Nonman/human hybrids that survive past birth are sterile.
Does this mean that the rape of Omindalea (and subsequent hybrid son/descendants) is definitely not canon? Or does it just mean that the Anasūrimbor do not descend from that particular hybrid after all? Seems strange that they wouldn't, after all, Nanor-Ukkerja lived to be 178 because of his supposed Nonman ancestry, and there are also the possibilities implied regarding Nonman genes among the Dūnyain.
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Woden

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« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2017, 06:43:48 pm »
Then the only other known way to explain the long lifespan of Nanor-Ukkerja would be chanv.

And the rape of Omindalea appears (briefly) mentioned in the Glossary in the entry of "Nonman Tutelage".
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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2017, 07:09:47 pm »
Then the only other known way to explain the long lifespan of Nanor-Ukkerja would be chanv.

Pretty much, yes, though we don't know what is the exact maximum lifespan that a chanv user can achieve (if I remember correctly, PON and/or the TTT glossary have it as "over a hundred years").


And the rape of Omindalea appears (briefly) mentioned in the Glossary in the entry of "Nonman Tutelage".

I had forgotten that, thank you. Then...Bakker changed his mind? Or was there possibly something special about Omindalea's son that allowed him to be able to reproduce? (Maybe it has something to do with which parent is the Nonman and which is the human?)
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasūrimbor Kayūtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Woden

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« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2017, 07:25:15 pm »
Maybe it's that. I don't remember if Cimoira (who was the daughter of a man and a nonwoman, lol) had children.
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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2017, 08:00:36 pm »
Maybe it's that. I don't remember if Cimoira (who was the daughter of a man and a nonwoman, lol) had children.

I don't think anything else is mentioned about Cimoira besides the fact that she was raised among the Nonmen as one of them. It's possible that she was indeed sterile while Sanna-Jephera (had to look up his name, Cimoira's is far easier to remember) wasn't.
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasūrimbor Kayūtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Woden

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« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2017, 08:14:41 pm »
In the PON wiki:

"Anasūrimbor Omindalea is the first daughter of Sanna-Neorjė (772-858) of the house Anasūrimbor. She was raped in 824 by Jiricet, a Nonman Siqū. She conceived by the union and died bearing Anasūrimbor Sanna-Jephera (825-1032), called ‘Twoheart.’

After a house-slave conceived by Sanna-Jephera, Sanna-Neorjė adopted Twoheart as his heir to house Anasūrimbor."
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2017, 06:47:44 am »
It's also possible that Anasurimbor Nanor-Ukkerja's lifespan is apocryphal.

Woden

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« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2017, 09:37:36 am »
Yes, that is a sound possibility too.
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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2017, 09:45:35 am »
In the PON wiki:

"Anasūrimbor Omindalea is the first daughter of Sanna-Neorjė (772-858) of the house Anasūrimbor. She was raped in 824 by Jiricet, a Nonman Siqū. She conceived by the union and died bearing Anasūrimbor Sanna-Jephera (825-1032), called ‘Twoheart.’

After a house-slave conceived by Sanna-Jephera, Sanna-Neorjė adopted Twoheart as his heir to house Anasūrimbor."

So Sanna-Jephera did have at least one documented child (I suppose he had at least one more later on as it's unlikely that a house-slave's bastard child would continue the Anasūrimbor line). He was clearly not sterile, but the question remains, was he an anomaly as the only Nonman/human fertile hybrid?


It's also possible that Anasurimbor Nanor-Ukkerja's lifespan is apocryphal.

Very possible, yes, maybe he was just a regular human who happened to live a few years past age 100 (still possible in this setting, there's also the case of Ajencis) and the story grew in the telling to the extent that modern-day Eärwans think he lived to 178.
And/or historians were misled by the dates of birth and death of Nanor-Ukkerja and a son of his with the same name (which has happened frequently in real life).
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasūrimbor Kayūtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Wilshire

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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2017, 05:15:24 pm »
In the PON wiki:

"Anasūrimbor Omindalea is the first daughter of Sanna-Neorjė (772-858) of the house Anasūrimbor. She was raped in 824 by Jiricet, a Nonman Siqū. She conceived by the union and died bearing Anasūrimbor Sanna-Jephera (825-1032), called ‘Twoheart.’

After a house-slave conceived by Sanna-Jephera, Sanna-Neorjė adopted Twoheart as his heir to house Anasūrimbor."

So Sanna-Jephera did have at least one documented child (I suppose he had at least one more later on as it's unlikely that a house-slave's bastard child would continue the Anasūrimbor line). He was clearly not sterile, but the question remains, was he an anomaly as the only Nonman/human fertile hybrid?


Bakker sometimes seems to only have a cursory understanding of some of the elements he has placed in the story, and a disregard for how heavily his words might be scrutinized out of the text. Not always, but sometimes.

That said, I think this is an anomalous case, regardless of Bakker's comments, as we have some decent evidence of non-sterility here. I'm happy to call it 'an exception to the rule', as clearly we don't have a bunch of hybrids running around.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2017, 08:08:39 pm »
Bakker sometimes seems to only have a cursory understanding of some of the elements he has placed in the story, and a disregard for how heavily his words might be scrutinized out of the text. Not always, but sometimes.

That said, I think this is an anomalous case, regardless of Bakker's comments, as we have some decent evidence of non-sterility here. I'm happy to call it 'an exception to the rule', as clearly we don't have a bunch of hybrids running around.

Hmm, I wondered if that could be the case. I guess we could consider Sanna-Jephera as the only fertile hybrid as canon (or close enough?) then? Cimoira being sterile would change nothing as we have no evidence anyone was/is descended from her, so Bakker's comment about sterile hybrids would still work for her.
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasūrimbor Kayūtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Wilshire

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« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2017, 03:31:05 pm »
The whole story is largely removed from the canon text, other than a brief mention buried in one of the other entries. I thought the missing entry lends credence to what makes the Anasurimbor special - as they most certainly are whether its among the Dunyain, the worldborn, or in the Sarcophagus. I haven't identified anything else that makes that family so Great.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2017, 04:12:22 pm »
It seems clear to me that he wanted the entry in both Glossaries and was surprised both times by the missing information.
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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2018, 06:34:23 pm »
I'm "resurrecting" this topic because there are a couple of things I wanted to add to this discussion (and keep forgetting to...).

On Cimoira: she has been discussed quite a bit over the years, I suppose, but there's something that I've never seen brought up (might be I haven't found the right threads).
Both "Cūno-Inchoroi Wars" entries in the TTT and TUC glossaries state that (bolding mine):
Quote
Apparently Sirwitta had seduced the wife of a high-ranking Ishroi and conceived by her a daughter named Cimoira. The Judges of the Ishroi were perplexed: such a thing had never happened before. The truth of Cimoira was suppressed, and despite her mannish blood she was accepted as Cūnuroi.
Which means that Cimoira would not have been obviously identified as a hybrid by her appearance alone. She had a close enough resemblance to any full-blooded Cūnuroi female that no one would know the truth about her ancestry without already being aware of it (or being told of it).
This raises interesting questions regarding the other known Cūnuroi/Halaroi hybrid, Anasūrimbor Sanna-Jephera. Did the fact that Sanna-Jephera's Cūnoroi parent was his father rather than his mother influence his appearance? (that does happen in nature with animal hybrids) Or did he, like Cimoira before him, looked enough like a Nonman to pass for one? It certainly makes me wonder how well he would have been accepted as his grandfather's successor once Sanna-Neorjė had died. Let us consider: he was a) illegitimate, b) born of rape, c) not fully human, d) a descendant from the female line. All factors that could have a strong impact in how well he was accepted as a lord (seeing as the Anasūrimbor were not yet kings at this time?). Add to all of this the fact that he did not even look human, and well...there's definitely a story there that I wish we could know.


The other thing: in the link to the Bakker AMA of April 2017 I posted at the beginning in this thread, Bakker says:
Quote
But the big thing is that Nonmen tend to look at humans as clever forms of wildlife, and congress with them as bestiality.
Not all of them, apparently!
From chapter 11 of TJE, Achamian tells the Skin Eaters (and Mimara) about the different versions of the story of Nostol:
Quote
In the second, Nostol himself seduced Weyukat, whom the Nonman King prized above all his other concubines, since she had twice carried his seed to pregnancy, if not to term-among few human women ever to do so.
So we do in fact have evidence of other hybrids (assuming there is at least some truth to this story), just non-viable ones. Apparently, Gin'yursis was not above considering the "breeding with humans" option, despite what Bakker had to say (again, this depends on the truth of this tale). An interesting tidbit nonetheless...
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasūrimbor Kayūtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Wilshire

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« Reply #14 on: March 21, 2018, 11:38:06 am »
Cimoira is often forgotten, which is kind of funny considering she was actually in the books, unlike Sanna-Jephera.

It is interesting given that line from TDTCB - "The strong seed forces the womb" - which I interpret as some kind legitimate statement about genetics rather than an old wives tale. I would suspect that the hybrid child with a male father would look like the father, though obviously this isn't the case.

So ignoring that, if we look at this one known case, we can see that the Mother influenced had a primary influence on the hybrid appearance, then maybe with Sanna-Jephera its more likely that he looked like his Halaroi mother. That, and some greater influence of the Nonman blood, might make what we'd consider to look like a typical human.

Aside, I would imagine a few centuries of not having women around might break down the taboo against congress with non-nonmen. That, and you can always find people with different preferences in a given population, so I assume the nonmen were no different. That it was a King seems strange, but the wealthy and powerful are accustomed to breaking societal norms, getting what they want when they want, and generally enjoy a kind of social impunity that an average person might not enjoy.
One of the other conditions of possibility.