Nonman/Human Hybrids

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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« on: August 13, 2017, 06:02:54 pm »
Today I was browsing the older threads about TSA at westeros.org when I came across a mention of a Bakker AMA from April of this year. There is a reply on there where Bakker states that Nonman/human hybrids that survive past birth are sterile.
Does this mean that the rape of Omindalea (and subsequent hybrid son/descendants) is definitely not canon? Or does it just mean that the Anasūrimbor do not descend from that particular hybrid after all? Seems strange that they wouldn't, after all, Nanor-Ukkerja lived to be 178 because of his supposed Nonman ancestry, and there are also the possibilities implied regarding Nonman genes among the Dūnyain.
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Woden

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« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2017, 06:43:48 pm »
Then the only other known way to explain the long lifespan of Nanor-Ukkerja would be chanv.

And the rape of Omindalea appears (briefly) mentioned in the Glossary in the entry of "Nonman Tutelage".
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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2017, 07:09:47 pm »
Then the only other known way to explain the long lifespan of Nanor-Ukkerja would be chanv.

Pretty much, yes, though we don't know what is the exact maximum lifespan that a chanv user can achieve (if I remember correctly, PON and/or the TTT glossary have it as "over a hundred years").


And the rape of Omindalea appears (briefly) mentioned in the Glossary in the entry of "Nonman Tutelage".

I had forgotten that, thank you. Then...Bakker changed his mind? Or was there possibly something special about Omindalea's son that allowed him to be able to reproduce? (Maybe it has something to do with which parent is the Nonman and which is the human?)
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Woden

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« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2017, 07:25:15 pm »
Maybe it's that. I don't remember if Cimoira (who was the daughter of a man and a nonwoman, lol) had children.
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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2017, 08:00:36 pm »
Maybe it's that. I don't remember if Cimoira (who was the daughter of a man and a nonwoman, lol) had children.

I don't think anything else is mentioned about Cimoira besides the fact that she was raised among the Nonmen as one of them. It's possible that she was indeed sterile while Sanna-Jephera (had to look up his name, Cimoira's is far easier to remember) wasn't.
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Woden

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« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2017, 08:14:41 pm »
In the PON wiki:

"Anasūrimbor Omindalea is the first daughter of Sanna-Neorjė (772-858) of the house Anasūrimbor. She was raped in 824 by Jiricet, a Nonman Siqū. She conceived by the union and died bearing Anasūrimbor Sanna-Jephera (825-1032), called ‘Twoheart.’

After a house-slave conceived by Sanna-Jephera, Sanna-Neorjė adopted Twoheart as his heir to house Anasūrimbor."
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The Sharmat

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« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2017, 06:47:44 am »
It's also possible that Anasurimbor Nanor-Ukkerja's lifespan is apocryphal.

Woden

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« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2017, 09:37:36 am »
Yes, that is a sound possibility too.
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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2017, 09:45:35 am »
In the PON wiki:

"Anasūrimbor Omindalea is the first daughter of Sanna-Neorjė (772-858) of the house Anasūrimbor. She was raped in 824 by Jiricet, a Nonman Siqū. She conceived by the union and died bearing Anasūrimbor Sanna-Jephera (825-1032), called ‘Twoheart.’

After a house-slave conceived by Sanna-Jephera, Sanna-Neorjė adopted Twoheart as his heir to house Anasūrimbor."

So Sanna-Jephera did have at least one documented child (I suppose he had at least one more later on as it's unlikely that a house-slave's bastard child would continue the Anasūrimbor line). He was clearly not sterile, but the question remains, was he an anomaly as the only Nonman/human fertile hybrid?


It's also possible that Anasurimbor Nanor-Ukkerja's lifespan is apocryphal.

Very possible, yes, maybe he was just a regular human who happened to live a few years past age 100 (still possible in this setting, there's also the case of Ajencis) and the story grew in the telling to the extent that modern-day Eärwans think he lived to 178.
And/or historians were misled by the dates of birth and death of Nanor-Ukkerja and a son of his with the same name (which has happened frequently in real life).
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Wilshire

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« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2017, 05:15:24 pm »
In the PON wiki:

"Anasūrimbor Omindalea is the first daughter of Sanna-Neorjė (772-858) of the house Anasūrimbor. She was raped in 824 by Jiricet, a Nonman Siqū. She conceived by the union and died bearing Anasūrimbor Sanna-Jephera (825-1032), called ‘Twoheart.’

After a house-slave conceived by Sanna-Jephera, Sanna-Neorjė adopted Twoheart as his heir to house Anasūrimbor."

So Sanna-Jephera did have at least one documented child (I suppose he had at least one more later on as it's unlikely that a house-slave's bastard child would continue the Anasūrimbor line). He was clearly not sterile, but the question remains, was he an anomaly as the only Nonman/human fertile hybrid?


Bakker sometimes seems to only have a cursory understanding of some of the elements he has placed in the story, and a disregard for how heavily his words might be scrutinized out of the text. Not always, but sometimes.

That said, I think this is an anomalous case, regardless of Bakker's comments, as we have some decent evidence of non-sterility here. I'm happy to call it 'an exception to the rule', as clearly we don't have a bunch of hybrids running around.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2017, 08:08:39 pm »
Bakker sometimes seems to only have a cursory understanding of some of the elements he has placed in the story, and a disregard for how heavily his words might be scrutinized out of the text. Not always, but sometimes.

That said, I think this is an anomalous case, regardless of Bakker's comments, as we have some decent evidence of non-sterility here. I'm happy to call it 'an exception to the rule', as clearly we don't have a bunch of hybrids running around.

Hmm, I wondered if that could be the case. I guess we could consider Sanna-Jephera as the only fertile hybrid as canon (or close enough?) then? Cimoira being sterile would change nothing as we have no evidence anyone was/is descended from her, so Bakker's comment about sterile hybrids would still work for her.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2017, 03:31:05 pm »
The whole story is largely removed from the canon text, other than a brief mention buried in one of the other entries. I thought the missing entry lends credence to what makes the Anasurimbor special - as they most certainly are whether its among the Dunyain, the worldborn, or in the Sarcophagus. I haven't identified anything else that makes that family so Great.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #12 on: August 19, 2017, 04:12:22 pm »
It seems clear to me that he wanted the entry in both Glossaries and was surprised both times by the missing information.
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