[TUC Spoilers] Nascenti of Zaudunyanicon

  • 163 Replies
  • 38580 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Hand of Yawgmoth

  • *
  • Nascenti
  • Suthenti
  • *****
  • Posts: 31
  • Curse Likaro!
    • View Profile
« Reply #75 on: August 17, 2017, 02:47:40 pm »
I don't think any Nascenti have brought this up:

There were a couple deleted scenes from TGO's bacchanal where the Mandate schoolmen believed they were Seswatha. We see it happen first with Saccarees, and then it spreads to the rest of them who have partaken of the feast. Eskales is made temporary grand-master (as was apparently planned from early on), and he is among the few who fasted rather than partake in the Meat.
To know is to have power over the world. To believe is to have power over men.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5235
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #76 on: August 17, 2017, 03:00:48 pm »
I don't think any Nascenti have brought this up:

There were a couple deleted scenes from TGO's bacchanal where the Mandate schoolmen believed they were Seswatha. We see it happen first with Saccarees, and then it spreads to the rest of them who have partaken of the feast. Eskales is made temporary grand-master (as was apparently planned from early on), and he is among the few who fasted rather than partake in the Meat.

Indeed. MG reading them to us late-night Saturday was great... his damn sweet, preacher-like, sermon-lending voice ;).

There's also a small Seswatha scene that was subtly changed from TGO draft to TGO canon artifact - though Wilshire is the only one who can share as I bequeathed him my draft for the coffers (which all of TSAs treasures are now signed!).
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Redeagl

  • *
  • Great Name
  • ****
  • Pun Master
  • Posts: 466
  • WHAT AM I ?
    • View Profile
« Reply #77 on: August 17, 2017, 03:18:19 pm »
I think deleted scenes won't be canon.
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

- Chronicler of the Chroniclers

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2289
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #78 on: August 17, 2017, 03:21:48 pm »
Quote from:  Madness
I feel like there was a pretty extensive conversation regarding morality on Friday night. One great line that got a laugh, I think, was "Would you ask Mohammad to rewrite the Quran?

Yea, I would be a little pissed with alot of people's reaction as well. I was about to post a long post at Westeros when Redeagl was fighting away, its just not worth the effort or the inevitable fighting afterwards.

But, before I even began TDCTB back in 11'-12', I knew of or at least seen TSTSNBN being used in Bakker threads. So, before I even read the series, I knew there was a 3rd series already planned. Everyone seems to forget this somehow.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5235
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #79 on: August 17, 2017, 03:32:26 pm »
I think deleted scenes won't be canon.

Of course they aren't, which is why Wilshire has long-admonished me not to talk about them and why I go through pains to forget them. We debate the canonical texts as everyone has them.

Though, this becomes complicates, as the Nascenti learned, when Bakker himself asked to have the italics sections of Neuropath removed from one printing to another...

...

...

Yeah... as someone who watched it happen over the years, the evidence is a post and Bakker comment on TPB describing himself as "completing the story" as he saw it at seventeen. Somehow those two one-offs have overcome all the other comments Bakker made over the years preceding and thereafter regarding The-Book-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named, then The-Series-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named.

If nothing else, I think I can say the Nascenti came away from Zaudunyanicon expecting the story to be just as awesome and dense and convoluted as we're used to, if only now trusting the Greater Bakker rather than the Lesser Bakker to tell it and shepherd us through The Second Apocalypse.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 03:34:00 pm by Madness »
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5235
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #80 on: August 17, 2017, 03:35:37 pm »
@ Madness, Wilshire

Guys, I really think that you've already done enough. No reason at all to feel bad if some things don't work out or are less than perfect. What we can (and do) have is great. Yet all Men desire more, 'tis a universal truth, but you aren't responsible for sating their thirst. What you do is a courtesy, and I very much appreciate it.

Martin level of community has its many perks, but lacks things possible for smaller groups.

Thanks, SmilerLoki :).
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5802
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #81 on: August 17, 2017, 03:52:45 pm »
I think deleted scenes won't be canon.
By definition even, something that was removed from the story prior to its publication is explicitly not canon.

But that said, we write our own realities ;) . The fact of the matter is that there are words from outside the published text that we use to interpret the world. Be them our own words, other posters here, those in Bakker's confidece like Wert, Bakker himself, and even deleted scenes.

As an example, The Rape of Omindale has had significant impacts of our understand of the Anasurimbor family and has cast new light and new shadows on the story for years. Is it canon? I'd argue that its not, but that doesn't stop it from being important to some, vital even for the understanding of  how the greater Earwa world works.

And since the proverbial cat is out of its sorcerous-shielding-anasurimbor/yatwer-bag, here goes. Feel free to ignore my musings on bits of text that might not even exist ;)
(click to show/hide)
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Baztek

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Aleph Jester
  • Posts: 137
  • "We are all of us brothers. Read these."
    • View Profile
« Reply #82 on: August 17, 2017, 06:39:49 pm »
Wait, wait, so the Fanim are among the most wrong? Tbh I considered them the one safe harbor in the ocean of crackpottery, and now I just don't know what to think anymore.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5802
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #83 on: August 17, 2017, 06:44:22 pm »
Wait, wait, so the Fanim are among the most wrong? Tbh I considered them the one safe harbor in the ocean of crackpottery, and now I just don't know what to think anymore.
Yeah sorry man. I always thought that, since they clearly lost, that they'd end up on the 'right' end of the spectrum.
This is apparently not the case.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Rots

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 26
    • View Profile
« Reply #84 on: August 17, 2017, 07:15:59 pm »
Thanks for the info and reflections from Zaudunyanicon. Im sure it would hvae been interesting to see things through my own eyes. Subject/object, and all that. Sometimes being a Bakker fan is a slog - he does not endear himself or make it easy and that is obviously perfectly fine as he can do what he wants. Im still, to use a term in this thread, nonplussed about TUC and i dont see that changing. If nothing else its simply a bad title and doesnt jive w/the material in the way that hte other 6 titles and books do, imho.

Also, shocked that hes shocked that the editing is so poor. Doesnt he get a production copy of the book before anyone? The editing was basically atrocious for TUC. Regardless, good job @Madness & Wilshire for setting this up. impressive work recruiting a recalcitrant Bakker to come out and press the flesh a little.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5802
  • One of the other conditions of possibility
    • View Profile
« Reply #85 on: August 17, 2017, 07:27:21 pm »
Im sure it would hvae been interesting to see things through my own eyes.
It always is.

Subject/object, and all that. Sometimes being a Bakker fan is a slog - he does not endear himself or make it easy and that is obviously perfectly fine as he can do what he wants.
I'm of the opinion that his skill at getting in his own way is without equal. A sharpshooter when aiming at his foot.
It would be great if he was more available, but he's no Lawrence or Abercrombie so we're stuck with what we got lol.

Im still, to use a term in this thread, nonplussed about TUC and i dont see that changing.
...
Also, shocked that hes shocked that the editing is so poor. Doesnt he get a production copy of the book before anyone? The editing was basically atrocious for TUC.

We joked about him having a kind of 'battered wife' syndrome regarding his relationship with Overlook. He seems to think they can do no wrong, and has never looked for a better offer (imo, for fear of rejection).
He did comment specifically on not reading the 'final print'. By the time it hits the shelves, he's had to read the final manuscript several times already, let alone all the hours he has spent writing and re-writing. He was fairly enraged at realizing none of the line edits that we handed him, that he subsequently spent time correcting, didn't make it into the book.

But I suspect nothing will change. He'll call Overlook, get blown off, back-justify that it was somehow his mistake, and we'll have Overlook again for the next books. This already happened with TGO, and it got worse in TUC, so I suspect we're still at the top of the slide.

« Last Edit: August 17, 2017, 07:31:03 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Sausuna

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
    • View Profile
« Reply #86 on: August 17, 2017, 08:02:46 pm »
If nothing else its simply a bad title and doesnt jive w/the material in the way that hte other 6 titles and books do, imho.
What would you have named it? Seemed fitting enough to me compared to the other titles.

Wolfdrop

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
« Reply #87 on: August 17, 2017, 09:11:09 pm »
Did he give a reason for the Mandate scenes being removed?

I missed Eskeles in TGO, and him appearing so emmaciated without anything prior seemed a bit...off? And he changed from Thanteus Eskeles to Teüs in TUC.

They would have been awesome additions to TGO and TUC.

Hand of Yawgmoth

  • *
  • Nascenti
  • Suthenti
  • *****
  • Posts: 31
  • Curse Likaro!
    • View Profile
« Reply #88 on: August 17, 2017, 09:23:36 pm »
Did he give a reason for the Mandate scenes being removed?

I missed Eskeles in TGO, and him appearing so emmaciated without anything prior seemed a bit...off? And he changed from Thanteus Eskeles to Teüs in TUC.

They would have been awesome additions to TGO and TUC.

He had to trim things down, and he decided that those scenes didn't do enough to serve the story. (I see his point and think he could have done with cutting a little more of Agongorea, but those particular scenes really pulled their weight).

Teus is just a short form of Thanteus, though that is a strange thing to do for a family name.
To know is to have power over the world. To believe is to have power over men.

Redeagl

  • *
  • Great Name
  • ****
  • Pun Master
  • Posts: 466
  • WHAT AM I ?
    • View Profile
« Reply #89 on: August 17, 2017, 11:58:21 pm »
That was a damn epic scene. The mandate being Seswatha and all. Thanks for that Wilshire and Madness. Btw, about the canon argument: I just meant not to take the deleted scenes are confirmed, since they didn't really happen. But it is a nice bonus to get.
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

- Chronicler of the Chroniclers