[TUC SPOILERS] Foreshadowing in the books.

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Madness

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« Reply #15 on: September 08, 2017, 03:42:52 pm »
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This world, he thought, must not end.
He turned from the view to the room’s single table and dropped onto the stool, or what passed for one—it looked like something salvaged from a wrecked ship. He wet his quill and unrolling a small scroll across scattered sheets of parchment, wrote:
Fords of Tywanrae. Same.
Burning of the Library of Sauglish. Different. See my face and
not S in mirror.

- The Darkness That Comes Before chapter 1.

Forgive the density of my gray matter, but what does this mean/foreshadow? Whose the writer ( Akka? ). The "See my face and not S in mirror" escapes me, don't know what is being said here.

What they said but also, very specifically, Achamian and Mimara are at Sauglish when a Dragon-caused forest fire happens to engulf it; "Burning of the Library of Sauglish. Different. See my face and not S in mirror," suggesting that Bakker had planned the end of WLW as far back as TDTCB.
Exactly. So, the " He makes it as he goes." comments on the other forum is not correct.

Lol, it goes both ways. There are certainly spontaneous narrative elements. Likewise there are things he's planned for a long time.
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Bolivar

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« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2017, 07:17:23 pm »
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The creak of bronze hinges. They both yanked their gazes to the shadows that concealed the entrance. The fires pulled and twirled in the tripods set to either side of the game-table. Achamian heard the scuff of little feet, then suddenly Nau-Cayûti hurtled into his father’s arms and lap.
  “Whoopa!” Celmomas cried. “What warrior leaps blindly into the arms of his foe?”
  The boy chortled in the grinding way of children fending fingers that tickle. “You’re not my foe, Da!”
  “Wait till you get older!”

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Redeagl

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« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2017, 09:18:06 pm »
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The creak of bronze hinges. They both yanked their gazes to the shadows that concealed the entrance. The fires pulled and twirled in the tripods set to either side of the game-table. Achamian heard the scuff of little feet, then suddenly Nau-Cayûti hurtled into his father’s arms and lap.
  “Whoopa!” Celmomas cried. “What warrior leaps blindly into the arms of his foe?”
  The boy chortled in the grinding way of children fending fingers that tickle. “You’re not my foe, Da!”
  “Wait till you get older!”

Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk
Damn.... That's a great find, Bolivar.
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

- Chronicler of the Chroniclers

JerakoKayne

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« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2017, 03:29:30 am »
This is pure speculation, but everything Bakker writes seems significant. True Chekhov's guns, as it were.

There's a scene in TUC where Kellhus tells little Kel that he's constantly switching with Sam. As the story stands right now, it's pretty much a superfluous statement, but the way Bakker writes none of this stuff stays irrelevant forever (especially Kellhus sayings). So I can't help but wonder what the Kel/Sam dual personality means for the No-God. If it survived, maybe Mog has some new insight or perspective on himself this time around.

Beasts move. Men reflect. (No-?)Gods make real.

EDIT: On that note, actually the passage that litany comes from kinda foreshadows his fate, too.

Quote
Kelmomas had been born staring into the deluge that was his twin's face. For a time, he knew, his mother's physicians had feared for him because it seemed he could do little more than gaze at his brother. All he could remember were the squalls of hurt and wheezing gratification, and a hunger so elemental that it swallowed the spaces between them, soldered their faces into a single soul. The world was shouldered to the periphery. The tutors and the physicians had droned from the edges, not so much ignored as overlooked by a two-bodied creature who stared endlessly into its own inscrutable eyes.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2017, 03:43:31 am by JerakoKayne »

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2017, 04:53:45 am »
That's beautiful. Probably similar to how the actual No-God experiences things too, i.e. " a hunger so elemental..."

Bolivar

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« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2017, 03:50:19 am »
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And this one Scylvendi, this Utemot Chieftain. Conphas had witnessed it, as much as any of the Columnaries who′d quailed before him in Joktha. In the firelight the barbarian’s eyes had been coals set in his skull. And the blood had painted him the colour of his true skin. The swatting arms, the roaring voice, the chest-pounding declarations. They had all seen the God. They had all seen dread Gilgaöl rearing about him, a great horned shadow …

Madness

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« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2017, 06:10:19 pm »
That specific foreshadowing, Bolivar, as well as Kellhus' speech in Shikol's Court are made even more interesting as Bakker talked at Zaudunyanicon about how when he began writing TAE he wasn't yet sure who would take Ajokli's position in TUC, Gilgaol or Ajokli.
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Duskweaver

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« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2017, 07:11:00 am »
A Nonman might point out the difficulty in disentangling the Principles of Hate and War. Inri Sejenus would concur that the same entity can wear different faces. Fane would argue rather huffily that all demons are made of lies anyway so shut up. Memgowa, of course, is just chuckling and shaking his head because he knows everyone else has missed the point entirely.

Perhaps how one perceives Hate and War depends more on the observer than on some immutable Divine Truth.
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

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« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2017, 04:36:10 pm »
You're on fire, Duskweaver :).
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Bolivar

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« Reply #24 on: October 06, 2017, 03:42:12 am »
That specific foreshadowing, Bolivar, as well as Kellhus' speech in Shikol's Court are made even more interesting as Bakker talked at Zaudunyanicon about how when he began writing TAE he wasn't yet sure who would take Ajokli's position in TUC, Gilgaol or Ajokli.

That's amazing. Did he mean that it was meant to be ambiguous up to that point, that Gilgaol could have taken over Kellhus in the Ark? It seems like he could have gone either way even after the Celmomas POV in TGO.

Wish I could've been there. I hope maybe you guys could move it just south of the border next year !!!  :D
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 03:44:23 am by Bolivar »

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« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2017, 03:10:29 pm »
That's amazing. Did he mean that it was meant to be ambiguous up to that point, that Gilgaol could have taken over Kellhus in the Ark? It seems like he could have gone either way even after the Celmomas POV in TGO.

Wish I could've been there. I hope maybe you guys could move it just south of the border next year !!!  :D

Well, Kellhus invokes himself in Gilgaol's name specifically in Shikol's Court. Conphas reflects that the Nansur swear they saw the "horned shadow" on Cnaiur as Gilgaol.

It seemed to me that he meant ambiguous when he starting working on TJE - given his AMA answer about not purposefully addressing the Gods in PON. I think he had the narrative planned out and, if I recall correctly, he specifically was debating what a sibling rivalry would look like between Gilgaol and Yatwer or the trickster version of Ajokli v. the Gods. Given how well I think TAE maps out with Ajokli specifically in mind, it seems he must have decided on Ajokli before finishing TJE.

I'm still of the opinion that Gilgaol is the God in Celmomas' Dream.

EDIT: Lol, regarding, Zaudunyanicon the Second, we'll see... I started planning Ishoiya about now in 2015 and Zaudunyanicon in August 2016. As Wilshire said, there's a lot more impetus to organize if Bakker's coming (which he likely wouldn't make the trip to the states unless we paid for it) or if there's a new book release (I'd settle for any new book release as an excuse).

We'll see.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 03:13:23 pm by Madness »
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« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2017, 03:53:18 pm »
Well, Kellhus invokes himself in Gilgaol's name specifically in Shikol's Court. Conphas reflects that the Nansur swear they saw the "horned shadow" on Cnaiur as Gilgaol.

It seemed to me that he meant ambiguous when he starting working on TJE - given his AMA answer about not purposefully addressing the Gods in PON. I think he had the narrative planned out and, if I recall correctly, he specifically was debating what a sibling rivalry would look like between Gilgaol and Yatwer or the trickster version of Ajokli v. the Gods. Given how well I think TAE maps out with Ajokli specifically in mind, it seems he must have decided on Ajokli before finishing TJE.

I'm still of the opinion that Gilgaol is the God in Celmomas' Dream.

Well, I think Kellhus (at least once) refers to Yatwer has his sister.  Considering that Gilgaol is Yatwer's brother, this could be another indication that Kellhus thinks himself akin to The God of War rather than the Price of Hate we know is actually the case.  It's easy to ascribe this to Ajokli further tricking him and it seems unlikely that Kellhus would or could know the difference.

So, when Kellhus appears to Celmomas a la Gilgaol, it is probably genuine in Kellhus' view, while in reality it is probably a further Ajokli trick.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Madness

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« Reply #27 on: October 07, 2017, 04:45:22 pm »
Well, Kellhus invokes himself in Gilgaol's name specifically in Shikol's Court. Conphas reflects that the Nansur swear they saw the "horned shadow" on Cnaiur as Gilgaol.

It seemed to me that he meant ambiguous when he starting working on TJE - given his AMA answer about not purposefully addressing the Gods in PON. I think he had the narrative planned out and, if I recall correctly, he specifically was debating what a sibling rivalry would look like between Gilgaol and Yatwer or the trickster version of Ajokli v. the Gods. Given how well I think TAE maps out with Ajokli specifically in mind, it seems he must have decided on Ajokli before finishing TJE.

I'm still of the opinion that Gilgaol is the God in Celmomas' Dream.

Well, I think Kellhus (at least once) refers to Yatwer has his sister.  Considering that Gilgaol is Yatwer's brother, this could be another indication that Kellhus thinks himself akin to The God of War rather than the Price of Hate we know is actually the case.  It's easy to ascribe this to Ajokli further tricking him and it seems unlikely that Kellhus would or could know the difference.

That's what I'm talking about. It's a speech he gives in Shikol's Court early on in TTT.
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Yellow

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« Reply #28 on: October 07, 2017, 06:15:06 pm »
I always interpreted that section as Kellhus imposing his godhood image by referring to one of the hundred as an equal. Manipulation rather than actually his he sees himself.
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JerakoKayne

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« Reply #29 on: October 07, 2017, 09:39:20 pm »
I always interpreted that section as Kellhus imposing his godhood image by referring to one of the hundred as an equal. Manipulation rather than actually his he sees himself.

That's gotta be one huge advantage of writing so vaguely. It's almost impossible to denounce anything as a retcon when there are always alternate interpretations!