[TUC SPOILERS] Foreshadowing in the books.

  • 52 Replies
  • 4397 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

SmilerLoki

  • *
  • Great Name
  • ****
  • Posts: 405
    • View Profile
« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2017, 10:20:23 pm »
That's gotta be one huge advantage of writing so vaguely. It's almost impossible to denounce anything as a retcon when there are always alternate interpretations!
What worries me is that it works both ways. There is no way to know that Bakker actually is saying something in any particular instance or clearly discern what it is.

No point exists where you can't (or fail) to convey one.

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5189
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2017, 02:37:55 pm »
I did link in another thread a text that suggests there are many authors/artists over the course of history who have attempted the "perfectly ambigious" artifact.

However...

What worries me is that it works both ways. There is no way to know that Bakker actually is saying something in any particular instance or clearly discern what it is.

No point exists where you can't (or fail) to convey one.

We do know that there is deliberate intent in certain instances (and we can be thankful that the Greater Bakker is obviously a much better writer than the Lesser Bakker ;)). It's just the case of teasing which ones are planned, which are lucky, and which don't work by either measure.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

TaoHorror

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 741
  • Blueberry Psûkhe Sorcerer
    • View Profile
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2017, 02:38:06 pm »
A Nonman might point out the difficulty in disentangling the Principles of Hate and War. Inri Sejenus would concur that the same entity can wear different faces. Fane would argue rather huffily that all demons are made of lies anyway so shut up. Memgowa, of course, is just chuckling and shaking his head because he knows everyone else has missed the point entirely.

Perhaps how one perceives Hate and War depends more on the observer than on some immutable Divine Truth.

How do you people know this shit? This is amazing and makes me feel small. Great stuff.
Remember to brush before bed

TheCulminatingApe

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 101
    • View Profile
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2017, 07:30:19 pm »
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2257.msg40922#msg40922

Something that just came to mind when reading the above post.
Sorweel and Oinaral descend into the 'pit' within Ishterebinth.  Oinaral sacrifices himself so that Oirunas confronts (and appears to bring about the defeat) the Consult element amongst the Non-Men. 
Does this foreshadow what goes on in the Golden Room?  We never actually see the resolution of Ishterebinth - perhaps to avoid any clues.  There is also the soul 'sharing' aspect with the Amiolas, which may have some relevance
Sez who?
Seswatha, that's who.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2176
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2017, 07:45:52 pm »
Quote from: Tao
How do you people know this shit? This is amazing and makes me feel small. Great stuff.

That's why we're begging Duskweaver to do a cast. Along with anyone else. When you get talking live with all these GREAT minds, little minds like me make huge revelations....lol. Its fun to hear so many different people come together and discuss these books.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TaoHorror

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 741
  • Blueberry Psûkhe Sorcerer
    • View Profile
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2017, 07:58:50 pm »
Quote from: Tao
How do you people know this shit? This is amazing and makes me feel small. Great stuff.

That's why we're begging Duskweaver to do a cast. Along with anyone else. When you get talking live with all these GREAT minds, little minds like me make huge revelations....lol. Its fun to hear so many different people come together and discuss these books.

Yeah, I'm like, what the fuck - I'm still trying to make head/tails of half this work and cats like DW are extending possible points of view of people referenced in the story, not even part of the current action. Wild.
Remember to brush before bed

Duskweaver

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
    • View Profile
« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2017, 09:17:55 pm »
How do you people know this shit?
'Know' is exactly the wrong word. Certainty is the death of wisdom. If I ever claim to actually know for sure what Bakker is trying to say, you can safely assume my monstrous ego has strangled my last vestiges of good sense and is reeling drunkenly around the inside of my skull, terminally high on hubris.

I merely speculate. My quite-screwed-up brain makes daft links between Bakker's writing and various odd things I've picked up over the years from Hofstadter, Hood, Buddhism, Kirkbride, Warhammer, etc. Sometimes a thought seems well-formed enough to put into words and post it here. Occasionally, I even have some coherent idea of what point I'm trying to make.

For the record, this post you're reading right now is not an example of that last one. ;)
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

Redeagl

  • *
  • Great Name
  • ****
  • Pun Master
  • Posts: 442
  • WHAT AM I ?
    • View Profile
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2017, 11:11:55 pm »
How do you people know this shit?
'Know' is exactly the wrong word. Certainty is the death of wisdom. If I ever claim to actually know for sure what Bakker is trying to say, you can safely assume my monstrous ego has strangled my last vestiges of good sense and is reeling drunkenly around the inside of my skull, terminally high on hubris.

I merely speculate. My quite-screwed-up brain makes daft links between Bakker's writing and various odd things I've picked up over the years from Hofstadter, Hood, Buddhism, Kirkbride, Warhammer, etc. Sometimes a thought seems well-formed enough to put into words and post it here. Occasionally, I even have some coherent idea of what point I'm trying to make.

For the record, this post you're reading right now is not an example of that last one. ;)
Michael Kirkbride?
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

- Chronicler of the Chroniclers

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5189
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2017, 03:51:31 pm »
How do you people know this shit?
'Know' is exactly the wrong word. Certainty is the death of wisdom. If I ever claim to actually know for sure what Bakker is trying to say, you can safely assume my monstrous ego has strangled my last vestiges of good sense and is reeling drunkenly around the inside of my skull, terminally high on hubris.

I merely speculate. My quite-screwed-up brain makes daft links between Bakker's writing and various odd things I've picked up over the years from Hofstadter, Hood, Buddhism, Kirkbride, Warhammer, etc. Sometimes a thought seems well-formed enough to put into words and post it here. Occasionally, I even have some coherent idea of what point I'm trying to make.

For the record, this post you're reading right now is not an example of that last one. ;)

+1
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Duskweaver

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
    • View Profile
« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2017, 07:36:41 pm »
Michael Kirkbride?
Of Elder Scrolls infamy, yes.
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

Redeagl

  • *
  • Great Name
  • ****
  • Pun Master
  • Posts: 442
  • WHAT AM I ?
    • View Profile
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2018, 04:47:16 pm »
Quote
“What am I?” the dark and regal face said, frowning. His oiled braids thrashed like snakes about his shoulders. The last of the light glimmered across the lions wrought into his bronze armour.
“The World, Anaxophus! The very World!”
This isn’t how it happens!
The whirlwind towered over them, a mountainous pillar of fury so high one had to kneel to see the cloud-shrouded summits. Cycling winds roared over them. The horses screamed and kicked from side to side. The chariot rocked beneath their feet. All had become ochre shadow. More scouring gusts, buffeting them with the power of riptides, bottomless and all-encompassing. The grit peeled the skin from his knuckles, from his cheeks.
The No-God walked.
Too late …
Strange … the way passion flickered out before life.
Horses shrieking. Chariot tipping.
TELL ME, ACHAMIA—
He bolted awake, crying out.
The Thousandfold Thought- chapter Seventeen.

I know I said that I am taking a small break, but PoN is just something else.
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

- Chronicler of the Chroniclers

Clozee

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2018, 01:57:40 pm »
Check this out:

First quote:

Quote
He had poked holes of varying sizes throughout the parchment, and when he held his oil lantern high to complement the firelight, little beads of water glinted across the tanned landscape. Each man, he explained, was a kind of hole in existence, a point where the Outside penetrated the world. He tapped one of the beads with his finger. It broke, staining the surrounding parchment. When the trials of the world broke men, he explained, the Outside leaked into the world.

This, he had said, was madness.

Second quote:

Quote
... thinking of all the Scylvendi had said regarding the new Emperor, of how even now he marched on the Holy War from the west—or from the sea. “Warn them,” the leering shadow had said. “I would not see Proyas dead.”

He quickly scratched a welter of new lines, all the connections he had ignored since his abduction by the Scarlet Spires. Then, in a hand too steady to be his own—for he was mad, he knew that now—he wrote,

THE DÛNYAIN

in the open space to the left of,

ANASÛRIMBOR KELLHUS

He held his quill above the ancient word for some time. Two drops of ink—tap-tap—marred the script. He watched them bleed outward, chasing a million infinitesimal veins, obliterating the word.

The ink drops seem to stand for Achamian and Cnaiur and for the fact that they have gone mad. (And this is due to Kellhus.)

That's interesting enough. But also, the ink drops "obliterate" a word on the paper. It's not clear whether that word is "Dunyain" or "Kellhus", though.

If it's "Kellhus" this would appear to foreshadow that Achamian and Cnaiur together will defeat Kellhus, aided by their madness. That's not what happens in the end, but they did try.

If it's "Dunyain", dunno. Could be about how Cnaiur kills Moenghus and Achamian is involved in the death of Koringhus.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2018, 02:02:43 pm by Clozee »

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2176
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2018, 07:18:56 pm »
I like were you're going with this. But, I think the ink spread out over Kellhus's name and is foreshadowing of Ajokli taking over. Also Kellhu's madness.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Dora Vee

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 161
  • The quest--it is your master.
    • View Profile
    • Divinesong
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2018, 08:20:40 pm »
Quote
thinking of all the Scylvendi had said regarding the new Emperor, of how even now he marched on the Holy War from the west—or from the sea. “Warn them,” the leering shadow had said. “I would not see Proyas dead.”

:(
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
                          -Ajencis, the fourth analytic of man

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5394
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #44 on: February 27, 2018, 12:56:37 pm »
Recall its not Kellhus in the sarcophagus. There was a lot of foreshawdowing that put Kellhus in the center of the whirlwind, but it was not to be. Very difficult to discern what was foreshadowing until after the fact ;) .
One of the other conditions of possibility.