[TUC SPOILERS] Foreshadowing in the books.

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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #30 on: October 07, 2017, 10:20:23 pm »
That's gotta be one huge advantage of writing so vaguely. It's almost impossible to denounce anything as a retcon when there are always alternate interpretations!
What worries me is that it works both ways. There is no way to know that Bakker actually is saying something in any particular instance or clearly discern what it is.

No point exists where you can't (or fail) to convey one.

Madness

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« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2017, 02:37:55 pm »
I did link in another thread a text that suggests there are many authors/artists over the course of history who have attempted the "perfectly ambigious" artifact.

However...

What worries me is that it works both ways. There is no way to know that Bakker actually is saying something in any particular instance or clearly discern what it is.

No point exists where you can't (or fail) to convey one.

We do know that there is deliberate intent in certain instances (and we can be thankful that the Greater Bakker is obviously a much better writer than the Lesser Bakker ;)). It's just the case of teasing which ones are planned, which are lucky, and which don't work by either measure.
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2017, 02:38:06 pm »
A Nonman might point out the difficulty in disentangling the Principles of Hate and War. Inri Sejenus would concur that the same entity can wear different faces. Fane would argue rather huffily that all demons are made of lies anyway so shut up. Memgowa, of course, is just chuckling and shaking his head because he knows everyone else has missed the point entirely.

Perhaps how one perceives Hate and War depends more on the observer than on some immutable Divine Truth.

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TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2017, 07:30:19 pm »
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2257.msg40922#msg40922

Something that just came to mind when reading the above post.
Sorweel and Oinaral descend into the 'pit' within Ishterebinth.  Oinaral sacrifices himself so that Oirunas confronts (and appears to bring about the defeat) the Consult element amongst the Non-Men. 
Does this foreshadow what goes on in the Golden Room?  We never actually see the resolution of Ishterebinth - perhaps to avoid any clues.  There is also the soul 'sharing' aspect with the Amiolas, which may have some relevance
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MSJ

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« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2017, 07:45:52 pm »
Quote from: Tao
How do you people know this shit? This is amazing and makes me feel small. Great stuff.

That's why we're begging Duskweaver to do a cast. Along with anyone else. When you get talking live with all these GREAT minds, little minds like me make huge revelations....lol. Its fun to hear so many different people come together and discuss these books.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TaoHorror

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« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2017, 07:58:50 pm »
Quote from: Tao
How do you people know this shit? This is amazing and makes me feel small. Great stuff.

That's why we're begging Duskweaver to do a cast. Along with anyone else. When you get talking live with all these GREAT minds, little minds like me make huge revelations....lol. Its fun to hear so many different people come together and discuss these books.

Yeah, I'm like, what the fuck - I'm still trying to make head/tails of half this work and cats like DW are extending possible points of view of people referenced in the story, not even part of the current action. Wild.
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Duskweaver

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« Reply #36 on: October 09, 2017, 09:17:55 pm »
How do you people know this shit?
'Know' is exactly the wrong word. Certainty is the death of wisdom. If I ever claim to actually know for sure what Bakker is trying to say, you can safely assume my monstrous ego has strangled my last vestiges of good sense and is reeling drunkenly around the inside of my skull, terminally high on hubris.

I merely speculate. My quite-screwed-up brain makes daft links between Bakker's writing and various odd things I've picked up over the years from Hofstadter, Hood, Buddhism, Kirkbride, Warhammer, etc. Sometimes a thought seems well-formed enough to put into words and post it here. Occasionally, I even have some coherent idea of what point I'm trying to make.

For the record, this post you're reading right now is not an example of that last one. ;)
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Redeagl

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« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2017, 11:11:55 pm »
How do you people know this shit?
'Know' is exactly the wrong word. Certainty is the death of wisdom. If I ever claim to actually know for sure what Bakker is trying to say, you can safely assume my monstrous ego has strangled my last vestiges of good sense and is reeling drunkenly around the inside of my skull, terminally high on hubris.

I merely speculate. My quite-screwed-up brain makes daft links between Bakker's writing and various odd things I've picked up over the years from Hofstadter, Hood, Buddhism, Kirkbride, Warhammer, etc. Sometimes a thought seems well-formed enough to put into words and post it here. Occasionally, I even have some coherent idea of what point I'm trying to make.

For the record, this post you're reading right now is not an example of that last one. ;)
Michael Kirkbride?
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

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Madness

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« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2017, 03:51:31 pm »
How do you people know this shit?
'Know' is exactly the wrong word. Certainty is the death of wisdom. If I ever claim to actually know for sure what Bakker is trying to say, you can safely assume my monstrous ego has strangled my last vestiges of good sense and is reeling drunkenly around the inside of my skull, terminally high on hubris.

I merely speculate. My quite-screwed-up brain makes daft links between Bakker's writing and various odd things I've picked up over the years from Hofstadter, Hood, Buddhism, Kirkbride, Warhammer, etc. Sometimes a thought seems well-formed enough to put into words and post it here. Occasionally, I even have some coherent idea of what point I'm trying to make.

For the record, this post you're reading right now is not an example of that last one. ;)

+1
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Duskweaver

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« Reply #39 on: October 11, 2017, 07:36:41 pm »
Michael Kirkbride?
Of Elder Scrolls infamy, yes.
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."