World War IV

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Wilshire

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« Reply #45 on: August 18, 2017, 02:44:35 pm »
The problem with religion, for me, is it's unassailable and irrefutable claims. It makes it so easy to always be the good guy and other's to be the bad guy, without any chance of reconciliation.

That kind of sounds like almost every other "-ism" I can think of though.

I just don't think labeling religion as evil is helpful, productive or particular apt.  Perhaps that's my bias.  It's people's misuse of it that it an issue.  Just like every other "-ism."

I don't disagree. I just think the nature of religion lends itself to manipulation more so than any other system in our current timespace. 
Of course statistics and scientific studies can be cherry picked and manipulated just as easy as anything else.
People have religious fervor for their chosen scientific or nihilistic gods.
But we can't remove people from the equation, so this seems like a low hanging fruit. Nihilists aren't going around blowing up building in the name of nothing, engineers aren't building faulty bridges in the name of the mathematical gods. (I'm sure this is a trap you were hoping I'd fall in :) ).

Crazy people are crazy, and they'll always be around. Removing this or that thing honestly wont solve the problem absolutely, but there must be some place to start... Sorry I've settled on a thing you like, but of course I don't like it so its easy for me.

Do you propose we kill every person that doesn't share your ideology? Because I agree that that would be an extremely effective answer. Round everyone up with violent ideologies, and burn them in big buildings. But its tough to sepparate wheat from chaff. So really, that solution is just killing everyone that believes in any ideology thats different than mine.

Just don't forget to round yourself up in this example, because this is also a violent ideology.  So, once you have burned literally everyone, you will have solved the problem.  Remember, there are no crimes if no one is left alive.

Obviously if it were me, I'd change the rules after the fact to justify my actions and make such an eventuality unnecessary. After all, why should I burn, I saved the world ;) .
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 03:08:08 pm by Wilshire »
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pail

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« Reply #46 on: August 18, 2017, 02:47:00 pm »
So who really won?  IS is todays natzi's. Except we cant just invade the country because they dont have one. They exist nowhere except the hearts and minds of those who believe.

IS certainly has a country. IS stands for Islamic State. No other country recognizes it as a state, but it has a clearly defined territory where it rules and collects taxes.

Wilshire

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« Reply #47 on: August 18, 2017, 03:06:20 pm »
So who really won?  IS is todays natzi's. Except we cant just invade the country because they dont have one. They exist nowhere except the hearts and minds of those who believe.

IS certainly has a country. IS stands for Islamic State. No other country recognizes it as a state, but it has a clearly defined territory where it rules and collects taxes.

Am I understanding correctly that you think that by removing that geographic region, the ideology will disappear just like Natzism? Because Natzis are still around, right, so ostensibly that line of logic doesn't pan out?

ANyway, I know what IS stands for, but I also think if you're understanding is that it only refers to a location on a map (which your above comment suggests, at least to me) and nothing to do with an ideology or religion, then I believe we might have difficulty discussing things further.
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pail

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« Reply #48 on: August 18, 2017, 03:13:37 pm »
Am I understanding correctly that you think that by removing that geographic region, the ideology will disappear just like Natzism?

I'm not saying that, nor do I propose killing everyone that doesn't share my ideology as you asked.

Wilshire

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« Reply #49 on: August 18, 2017, 03:17:15 pm »
Am I understanding correctly that you think that by removing that geographic region, the ideology will disappear just like Natzism?

I'm not saying that, nor do I propose killing everyone that doesn't share my ideology as you asked.

Then what are you saying? Leaving me to fill in gaps doesn't seem to be working... :)
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Redeagl

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« Reply #50 on: August 18, 2017, 03:24:58 pm »
I agree.

By the way I want to apologize for my multiple faults of expression - that probably originate some misunderstanding. English is obviously not my mother tongue, and I haven't studied it since I left high school 25 five years ago. I have read a lot in english since then but it is hard for me to express my thoughts in a elaborate form in english. I will try to do my best.
Thanks guys for being patient with me.
Lol Woden, you aren't alone in that ;)
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

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Wilshire

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« Reply #51 on: August 18, 2017, 03:26:22 pm »
Am I understanding correctly that you think that by removing that geographic region, the ideology will disappear just like Natzism?

I'm not saying that, nor do I propose killing everyone that doesn't share my ideology as you asked.

Then what are you saying? Leaving me to fill in gaps doesn't seem to be working... :)

You guys are cool  8) . Maybe I should stop bitching and take up learning a new one.
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pail

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« Reply #52 on: August 18, 2017, 03:38:43 pm »
Then what are you saying? Leaving me to fill in gaps doesn't seem to be working... :)

Well, going back to my first post, first I disagreed with the idea that a war of ideas can, in principle, never be won with violence, then with the idea that it's impossible to directly attack IS since it only exists as an idea. I don't think I've taken a position on the best course of action to take in our current straits!

H

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« Reply #53 on: August 18, 2017, 03:59:13 pm »
The problem with religion, for me, is it's unassailable and irrefutable claims. It makes it so easy to always be the good guy and other's to be the bad guy, without any chance of reconciliation.

That kind of sounds like almost every other "-ism" I can think of though.

I just don't think labeling religion as evil is helpful, productive or particular apt.  Perhaps that's my bias.  It's people's misuse of it that it an issue.  Just like every other "-ism."

I don't disagree. I just think the nature of religion lends itself to manipulation more so than any other system in our current timespace. 
Of course statistics and scientific studies can be cherry picked and manipulated just as easy as anything else.
People have religious fervor for their chosen scientific or nihilistic gods.
But we can't remove people from the equation, so this seems like a low hanging fruit. Nihilists aren't going around blowing up building in the name of nothing, engineers aren't building faulty bridges in the name of the mathematical gods. (I'm sure this is a trap you were hoping I'd fall in :) ).

Crazy people are crazy, and they'll always be around. Removing this or that thing honestly wont solve the problem absolutely, but there must be some place to start... Sorry I've settled on a thing you like, but of course I don't like it so its easy for me.

Nihilists aren't blowing up buildings (generally) because there is no political gain from doing so.  But like you say, crazy people are crazy.  Science is a tool and people can misuse tools.  Religion is also a tool and people misuse it as well.  This doesn't preclude that one is "good" and the other "evil."  No more than a knife (easy to use a weapon) is a more evil tool than a spoon ("you scoop with a spoon".  Sure, some things are more dangerous than others, but nothing really precludes evil, except people.

Well, I actually am not a fan of religion in any way, shape or form.  In fact, I rather dislike most parts of most of them.  However, what I like isn't really the point.

Obviously if it were me, I'd change the rules after the fact to justify my actions and make such an eventuality unnecessary. After all, why should I burn, I saved the world ;) .

Ah, the true mark of a good rule: the necessity of excepting one's self from it, haha.
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Woden

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« Reply #54 on: August 18, 2017, 04:03:23 pm »
IS has to be destroyed to the ground and its subjacent ideology fought with education and learning. But to me it is clearly necessary to defeat the IS "army" and remove their cursed leaders. Without forgetting the ruthless persecution of terrorists in Europe and their patrons in Middle East (IS, but some bastards in Qatar, Arabia and Emirates too).
« Last Edit: August 18, 2017, 07:42:27 pm by Woden »
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MSJ

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« Reply #55 on: August 18, 2017, 07:07:09 pm »
Wilshire, in sorry but downplaying terrorists to just criminals, is quite frankly the dumbest thing I think I've ever heard you say. I get your point to make make martyrs of them, thats true. But, terrorists are way more than mere criminals. The are Islamic extremists (for the most part, what this thread is about) with a clear ideology that all infidels either convert to Islam or die. Thats not just your run of the mill criminal. This is their Jihad, and one they are fighting quote effectively. I understand your want to downplay it, thats just as dangerous.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #56 on: August 19, 2017, 12:18:44 am »
As long as the conditions are there, terrorists will keep coming. You don't stop terrorism by saying "we must destroy ISIS! Liberate the Middle East! Democracy for all" and then bombing everything to shit.

Wilshire

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« Reply #57 on: August 19, 2017, 03:13:26 pm »
Wilshire, in sorry but downplaying terrorists to just criminals, is quite frankly the dumbest thing I think I've ever heard you say. I get your point to make make martyrs of them, thats true. But, terrorists are way more than mere criminals. The are Islamic extremists (for the most part, what this thread is about) with a clear ideology that all infidels either convert to Islam or die. Thats not just your run of the mill criminal. This is their Jihad, and one they are fighting quote effectively. I understand your want to downplay it, thats just as dangerous.

You say so, but obviously I disagree. I'm not downplaying anything - just look at the numbers. Terrorist killings are non-existent from a statistical standpoint. Literally 0% of people are killed by them every year. What part of 0% is effective from a global standpoint? (32,000 killed by "terrorists" last year in the world. 32,000/(7,000,000,000)= 0%).

Making them into THE BIG BAD makes them important. I downplay nothing, its you who is making them Terrorists. We each get to decide to give them power or not, and if you want to give them power, I can't stop you. (Obviously, situations vary from country to country, but from the US perspective at least)

I see criminals. You can see them as Unholy Evil that must be stomped into dust with the military might of the whole world. (Do I need to point out again that, from their perspective, its exactly the same?)

Take their 0%, ie total failure, and make them into the most frightening thing to exist in the world, then ask yourself, who is making them effective, is it them, or are you doing their job for them?

with a clear ideology that all infidels either convert to Islam or die. Thats not just your run of the mill criminal.
What makes this special? What killing can't be boiled down to "i want this thing, and I'm willing to kill to get it". Be it religion, or power, or sex, or money, or jewelry, or anything else?  Organized crime, both nationally and internationally, has existed for centuries. The world has kept turning.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 03:37:33 pm by Wilshire »
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Madness

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« Reply #58 on: August 19, 2017, 03:23:44 pm »
I've partially read through the thread and I just don't have the time I want today to respond if I want to keep transcribing audio from Zaudunyanicon and do fandom due diligence.

Though, mostly Woden, but a couple others, I won't tolerate name-calling (literally). Referring terrorists as bastards does us no good.

This is an ideological problem before anything else. I had this conversation with my older sister yesterday regarding Charlottesville. The White Supremacists/KKK/Nazis/whatever are kids raised by cultural heritage and familial history. Clearly doing away with any one "Vendetta Generation" isn't the solution.
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MSJ

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« Reply #59 on: August 19, 2017, 03:35:20 pm »
You say so, but obviously I disagree. I'm not downplaying anything - just look at the numbers. Terrorist killings are non-existent from a statistical standpoint. Literally 0% of people are killed by them every year. What part of 0% is effective from a global standpoint? (32,000 killed by "terrorists" last year in the world. 32,000/(7,000,000,000)= 0%)

Making them into THE BIG BAD makes them important. I downplay nothing, its you who is making them Terrorists. Obviously, that's your call, but I choose to not make a mountain out of a molehill. We each get to decide to give them power or not, and if you want to give them power, I can't stop you. (Obviously, situations vary from country to country, but from the US perspective at least)

I see criminals. You can see them as Unholy Evil that must be stomped into dust with the military might of the whole world. (Do I need to point out again that, from their perspective, its exactly the same?)

Take their 0%, ie total failure, and make them into the most frightening thing to exist in the world, then ask yourself, who is making them effective, is it them, or are you doing their job for them?

Terrorism isn't effective? Its taking over cities in the Middle East, nay, countries. I'm not making the into the BiG Bad, they are an dangerous and effective enemy. Wilshire, downplaying is your choice, but that's not reality.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,