World War IV

  • 185 Replies
  • 18589 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5742
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #60 on: August 19, 2017, 03:38:43 pm »
You say so, but obviously I disagree. I'm not downplaying anything - just look at the numbers. Terrorist killings are non-existent from a statistical standpoint. Literally 0% of people are killed by them every year. What part of 0% is effective from a global standpoint? (32,000 killed by "terrorists" last year in the world. 32,000/(7,000,000,000)= 0%)

Making them into THE BIG BAD makes them important. I downplay nothing, its you who is making them Terrorists. Obviously, that's your call, but I choose to not make a mountain out of a molehill. We each get to decide to give them power or not, and if you want to give them power, I can't stop you. (Obviously, situations vary from country to country, but from the US perspective at least)

I see criminals. You can see them as Unholy Evil that must be stomped into dust with the military might of the whole world. (Do I need to point out again that, from their perspective, its exactly the same?)

Take their 0%, ie total failure, and make them into the most frightening thing to exist in the world, then ask yourself, who is making them effective, is it them, or are you doing their job for them?

Terrorism isn't effective? Its taking over cities in the Middle East, nay, countries. I'm not making the into the BiG Bad, they are an dangerous and effective enemy. Wilshire, downplaying is your choice, but that's not reality.


The US has been doing this for centuries. Aren't we, then, far more evil? (taking over governments, installing our own leaders, imposing our own laws, reparation payments, economic slavery, etc. )
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 03:41:00 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2285
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #61 on: August 19, 2017, 03:44:00 pm »
Quote
The US has been doing this for centuries. Aren't we, then, far more evil? (taking over governments, installing our own leaders, imposing our own laws, reparation payments, economic slavery, etc. )

To serve our interests, sure. But, our we calling for the deaths of all infidels? Have we sent out calls for terrorist acts on unsuspecting, innocent people? Your comparing apples to oranges.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Woden

  • *
  • Great Name
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
    • View Profile
« Reply #62 on: August 19, 2017, 04:23:11 pm »
Here at least we have the shadow of liberty and civil rights, there they have none and they want to extend their barbarism all over the world.
When they triumph, there will be no more books, no more films, no more music... all you have dear is blasphemous in the eyes of these suckers.
Know what your slaves believe, and you will always be their master.

solipsisticurge

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 79
  • There is a head on a pole behind him.
    • View Profile
« Reply #63 on: August 19, 2017, 04:57:32 pm »
To serve our interests, sure. But, our we calling for the deaths of all infidels? Have we sent out calls for terrorist acts on unsuspecting, innocent people? Your comparing apples to oranges.

And ISIS are engaged in military/espionage activity to serve their own interests. I'm not arguing the two are absolutely equal in subjective moral terms - a world controlled by the U.S. would be a far nicer one to live in than one controlled by ISIS - but no nation, group or ideology can claim that violent action taken "in their own interests" holds any moral superiority to violent action taken by anyone else, barring self-defense. Hell, half the reason the Middle East is such an international issue is due to culturally ignorant meddling by the US and UK post-WWI. (I laugh my ass off whenever some idiot says we need to bomb Iran into democracy. What, and erase the great job we did of overthrowing the one they had, but that wouldn't bend over to serve western economic interests?)

The word "terrorism," as distinct from "war," simply means "war carried out by individuals or groups not diplomatically recognized as sovereign." The specific targeting of civilian populations is abhorrent, but plenty of noncombatants have managed so somehow die, terrified, in sanctioned, non-"terror" military action as well.
Kings never lie. They demand the world be mistaken.

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5742
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #64 on: August 19, 2017, 06:17:20 pm »
To serve our interests, sure. But, our we calling for the deaths of all infidels? Have we sent out calls for terrorist acts on unsuspecting, innocent people? Your comparing apples to oranges.

And ISIS are engaged in military/espionage activity to serve their own interests. I'm not arguing the two are absolutely equal in subjective moral terms - a world controlled by the U.S. would be a far nicer one to live in than one controlled by ISIS - but no nation, group or ideology can claim that violent action taken "in their own interests" holds any moral superiority to violent action taken by anyone else, barring self-defense. Hell, half the reason the Middle East is such an international issue is due to culturally ignorant meddling by the US and UK post-WWI. (I laugh my ass off whenever some idiot says we need to bomb Iran into democracy. What, and erase the great job we did of overthrowing the one they had, but that wouldn't bend over to serve western economic interests?)

The word "terrorism," as distinct from "war," simply means "war carried out by individuals or groups not diplomatically recognized as sovereign." The specific targeting of civilian populations is abhorrent, but plenty of noncombatants have managed so somehow die, terrified, in sanctioned, non-"terror" military action as well.

This is what I'm attempting to point out. Killing is killing. That we can justify it when we do it, but can't justify it when someone else does it, should stink of hypocrisy. That it doesn't is really very close to all of Bakker's works.

I'm always confused why we can see how Inrithi and Fanimry are the same, Kellhus and the Consult, Sranc and The Great Ordeal... but when you call it 'crusade' and 'jihad', or 'christian' and 'islamic', or 'western' and 'middle eastern', we somehow entirely lose our ability to reflect.

Why is it so hard for us, ie 'the western world' / 'US citizens' / etc. , to even entertain the possibility that we commit evil? It was, in fact, the western world that, as solipsisticurge points out, destabilized the area to begin with.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 06:18:55 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 942
    • View Profile
« Reply #65 on: August 19, 2017, 08:03:14 pm »
the US/UK funded ISIS, the Israeli's provided intelligence and medical supplies, The Saudi's armed them and the Turks bought their oil.

Because for various reasons bringing down Assad's government was beneficial to them. Russia, Iran and Syria fought against that.

Hilary's state department helped facilitate the mass transport of weapons from Libya to Syria as shown in the released wiki-leak cables but all the "conspiracy sites" decided to run with that weird crazy "pizza-gate" child prostitution ring.

The media have their own agenda and some work for security services as well as their media job. The Saudi's are currently starving Yemen entirely and it never seems to be on the news.


themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 942
    • View Profile
« Reply #66 on: August 19, 2017, 08:04:23 pm »
Quote
The US has been doing this for centuries. Aren't we, then, far more evil? (taking over governments, installing our own leaders, imposing our own laws, reparation payments, economic slavery, etc. )

To serve our interests, sure. But, our we calling for the deaths of all infidels? Have we sent out calls for terrorist acts on unsuspecting, innocent people? Your comparing apples to oranges.

Doing shit like this since the 50's

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8

UK doing the same shit, The party i support in Scotland doesn't even want to be in NATO cause it's not a force for good.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2285
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #67 on: August 19, 2017, 08:56:24 pm »
I get what your all saying. I bleed red, white and blue, though. So, because we took the opportunity to kill a mass-murderer of his own people (Sadaam), did result in its destabilization, it's unfortunate. But, same shit occurs in Iran, Afghanistan(dont even begin to try to argue that wasn't justified. Yoou knock down the Towers....we're fucking up your shit.), and countries that we haven't even destabilized. Africa, Palestine both use and encourage terrorism. What you think America should just stay out of World affairs? Shit, Redeagl blames us for not doing enough. So how you see it and others, even those from these countries is totally different. Destabilize that area? You mean took out one of the most dangerous mean to the planet and even his own people? Pffft. I ain't no fucking pacifist. These fuckers deserve to die and a far worse death than they get usually. But, mterrorism, is a totally different war. And, you won't get me to believe it's our fault or that our actions are on par with theirs. If you think so, pack your bags and move to Iran, then tell me how well your life is.

ETA: and ISIS wouldn't even be as big a deal as they are if our troops weren't yanked outta there in 2009 or so, against military brass wishes. And, yea, I know, we gain from the war, but we was making it a safer place until that pullout occurred. It just happened too soon.

ETAA: A Facebook friend and one who is also on TSA Facebook said today that the Left stays silent and makes excuse when it comes to Islamic extremism using terrorism and the right stays silent when shit like what happened in Charlottesville happens. She found it confusing and down right cowardice. Its all terrorism and it's all wrong. Common Criminals? No.
« Last Edit: August 19, 2017, 09:21:23 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 942
    • View Profile
« Reply #68 on: August 19, 2017, 09:46:04 pm »
The Hijackers were (predominately) from Saudi Arabia and Bin Laden was in Pakistan. Why was Afghanistan justified?

Do you know who sold Saddam the gas? Do you know who put Saddam in power and used and supported his brutal war against Iran? Iran had a democratically elected government until 1953, guess which two countries supported a coup by islamic monarchists? Answers of course being UK/US.

I showed you what the Clinton Administration did, they caused the death of 500,000 Iraqi children under the age of 5 for political reasons, and had the audacity to make out it was a fair trade.

TLEILAXU

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Exalt-Smiter of Theories
  • Posts: 731
    • View Profile
« Reply #69 on: August 19, 2017, 10:17:01 pm »
Hell, half the reason the Middle East is such an international issue is due to culturally ignorant meddling by the US and UK post-WWI. (I laugh my ass off whenever some idiot says we need to bomb Iran into democracy. What, and erase the great job we did of overthrowing the one they had, but that wouldn't bend over to serve western economic interests?)
Half might be an understatement, and yeah, it's really quite sad how little recognition the CIA backed overthrow of Mosaddegh gets in its role of fueling the Islamic revolution.

I get what your all saying. I bleed red, white and blue, though. So, because we took the opportunity to kill a mass-murderer of his own people (Sadaam), did result in its destabilization, it's unfortunate. But, same shit occurs in Iran, Afghanistan(dont even begin to try to argue that wasn't justified. Yoou knock down the Towers....we're fucking up your shit.), and countries that we haven't even destabilized. Africa, Palestine both use and encourage terrorism.
If your aim is to destroy regimes you find morally reprehensible, why not start with Saudi Arabia, arguably the most unequal country on earth in terms of female and immigrant rights.

What you think America should just stay out of World affairs?
That'd be a start. We Europeans wouldn't have to deal with this huge refugee mess if Assad had just been allowed to violently shut down the demonstrations.

Destabilize that area? You mean took out one of the most dangerous mean to the planet and even his own people? Pffft
Have you ever considered that this might've been something engineered to morally justify violent actions?

To serve our interests, sure. But, our we calling for the deaths of all infidels?
Pffft. I ain't no fucking pacifist. These fuckers deserve to die and a far worse death than they get usually.
Well, it's not THAT far off  8)

And, you won't get me to believe it's our fault or that our actions are on par with theirs. If you think so, pack your bags and move to Iran, then tell me how well your life is.
I have friends who've been to Iran (one of them a female), and they said it's quite a nice place. I wouldn't want to live there though, especially given the economic situation.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2285
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #70 on: August 20, 2017, 01:11:37 am »
Quote from:  Tleilaxu
If your aim is to destroy regimes you find morally reprehensible, why not start with Saudi Arabia, arguably the most unequal country on earth in terms of female and immigrant rights.

Without a doubt. But, MONEY, OIL..and we all know this is the reason we turn a blind eye.

Quote
That'd be a start. We Europeans wouldn't have to deal with this huge refugee mess if Assad had just been allowed to violently shut down the demonstrations.

You know it and I know it...never going to happen. Even if we did, as world super-power we would catch just as much flack for standing by idly. Its a lose-lose situation.

Quote
Have you ever considered that this might've been something engineered to morally justify violent actions?

Yep, I'm no fool. Just another nation whose resources we want and were the World Bank wants a presence. Still, I am glad and the world is a better place without Sadaam. A man who committed mass genocide in his own people for decades and ruled by terror.

Quote
I have friends who've been to Iran (one of them a female), and they said it's quite a nice place. I wouldn't want to live there though, especially given the economic situation.

Same a Saudi Arabia, a country under Shariah Law. Where women are beheaded for adultery (or less) while men have as much fun as they want. Selling off daughters, throwing members of the LGBTQ+ community off of roofs and persecuting Christians and Jews. Doesn't sound like a nice place to me.

Anything else?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2285
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #71 on: August 20, 2017, 01:17:26 am »
Quote from:  themerchant
The Hijackers were (predominately) from Saudi Arabia and Bin Laden was in Pakistan. Why was Afghanistan justified?

The train ground and safe haven for Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden, those who orchestrated the attack. The deserved every bit of what the got.

ETA: not to mention removing the Taliban. Another scourge of the Earth.

Look, I know America's hand are not clean, not by a mile. But, some of what we do is good and benefits those that live there. You just have to give their government and new military time to train and get a handle of the situation on there own before you go and pull all our troops out. Its a touchy situation, no doubt about it. But, in most of these cases, something has to be done.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 01:54:28 am by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 942
    • View Profile
« Reply #72 on: August 20, 2017, 11:05:57 am »

Quote from:  themerchant
The Hijackers were (predominately) from Saudi Arabia and Bin Laden was in Pakistan. Why was Afghanistan justified?

The train ground and safe haven for Al-Qaeda and Bin Laden, those who orchestrated the attack. The deserved every bit of what the got.

ETA: not to mention removing the Taliban. Another scourge of the Earth.

Look, I know America's hand are not clean, not by a mile. But, some of what we do is good and benefits those that live there. You just have to give their government and new military time to train and get a handle of the situation on there own before you go and pull all our troops out. Its a touchy situation, no doubt about it. But, in most of these cases, something has to be done.


Do you know who started terrorist/freedom fighters training camps in Afghanistan with the Mujahideen? Zbigniew Brzezinski.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYvO3qAlyTg   https://www.counterpunch.org/1998/01/15/how-jimmy-carter-and-i-started-the-mujahideen/

Brzezinski: Yes. According to the official version of history, CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise: Indeed, it was July 3, 1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul. And that very day, I wrote a note to the president in which I explained to him that in my opinion this aid was going to induce a Soviet military intervention.

The Taliban still exists. Now the US has administration has a friendly administration that wasn't destroying all the heroin poppies worth billions.

US War In Afghanistan Is Fueling Global Heroin Epidemic & Enabling The Drug Trade

When the U.S. overthrew the Taliban in the wake of 9/11, it set the stage for the explosive growth of Afghanistan’s opium industry. In this episode of ‘Behind the Headline,’ host Mnar Muhawesh explains how the global war on terror created a global epidemic of heroin overdoses.

http://www.mintpressnews.com/global-war-terror-created-heroin-epidemic-us-afghanistan/218662/

just a wee bakker quote at the end.

This one thing every tyrant will tell you: nothing saves more lives than murder
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 11:09:18 am by themerchant »

themerchant

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Captain Slogger
  • Posts: 942
    • View Profile
« Reply #73 on: August 20, 2017, 11:08:08 am »
I agree that anihilate these fuckers is the only way. But it is not enough, who is behind them? who has given (and is giving) them money and support? This Unholy Consult has to be destroyed too.
But some of them are like skin-spies among us and pretend to be friends, etc. How to deal with them?


LePen is irrelevant only due to the french political system, she had a bunch of voters in first and second rounds, but fortunately this is not enough. Other countries do not have these counterweights and could end in the hands of demagogs (Spain included, here we would be so retards to have some kind of imitators of venezuelan communists, lol be praised).


Scotland's parliament is set up to avoid majorities although the SNP got them cause so many people were voting for them.

Woden

  • *
  • Great Name
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
    • View Profile
« Reply #74 on: August 20, 2017, 11:12:59 am »
In the end the scene that Houellebecq depicts in Submission will be possible.
Know what your slaves believe, and you will always be their master.