Who actually liked TUC?

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Redeagl

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« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2017, 04:52:43 am »
My third favourite in my favourite series ever.
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

- Chronicler of the Chroniclers

solipsisticurge

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« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2017, 05:57:25 am »
I thoroughly enjoyed the book. It has its faults, but is a fitting end to the series so far. It subverts the Epic Fantasy Grand Finale just as well as the characters and story have so far subverted every trope and cliche in fantasy writing.

What I will say is, TUC suffers far more being the second half of a split novel than TGO suffered being the first half. You can positively feel the absence in places. (Probably less impactful if you've read TGO obsessively numerous times, or had opportunity for a re-read shortly before TUC's release.) The one ridiculously long novel would have been better, financial realities of modern publishing be damned.

Would have liked a bit more time with the New Consult, Kellhus and the Mutilated waxing philosophical about their opposing agendas, rather than a curt, "Whatcha gonna do? Gnosis goes one way, Tekne the other!" analysis of the differences. Though I suppose it is in character; I doubt Dunyain waste much breath in debate with no likely resolution.

The carnal violence did little to phase me. Bakker's gonna Bakker, and I have a thick skin where such matters are concerned. (Please don't overanalyze or misinterpret "thick skin" there.)
Kings never lie. They demand the world be mistaken.

Khaine

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« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2017, 06:20:21 am »
It is like wine, as it matures it gets better.

I was also frustrated by the end, initially.

BUT as days go by and I reflect on the different themes, story arcs and parallelisms between PON and Aspect-Emperor, the more I like it.

I mean Kellhus gets salted. Throughout the entire PON I wanted Kellhus to get defeated, because I was annoyed at how good he was at everything.

Then during the Aspect-Emperor series, slowly but surely as the full depravity of the Consult became clear, I started to support Kellhus, even up to the point where he became an Avatar of Satan (pretty much!), despite having no idea what was his plan. Just the one liner, when he gazed into the Inverse Fire produced so much awesomeness: Where you fall as fodder, I descend as hunger -- which put into full perspective the dialogues in the Great Ordeal about fodder and harvest, I presume it was Kellhus debating / discussing / making a pact with Ajoklis. Awesome stuff.

And now having changed my mind about Kellhus, he is salted! What a roller coaster of emotions!

Achamian is still alive, and I sincerely hope that he will be instrumental in defeating the No-God, so all is good.

There is design in the density of the series and all is forgiven.

It is a rewarding experience but only once you let go the notion of a clear end.

Knowing was the foundation of ignorance. To think that one *knew* was to become utterly blind to the unknown.

R. Scott Baker, The White Luck Warrior, chapter 12.

ἕν οἶδα, ὅτι οὐδέν οἶδα

solipsisticurge

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« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2017, 07:00:29 am »

Where you fall as fodder, I descend as hunger -- which put into full perspective the dialogues in the Great Ordeal about fodder and harvest, I presume it was Kellhus debating / discussing / making a pact with Ajoklis. Awesome stuff.


I had remembered that line from earlier books, but not well enough to draw the parallel there. Nice!
Kings never lie. They demand the world be mistaken.

Sausuna

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« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2017, 12:41:20 pm »
I quite enjoyed the book. The ending was a bit tough to swallow at first, I typically enjoy a happy ending, but we'll see what goes down in the books to come. I think the dark tone helped adjust my expectations given the clear line of people being damned fully on the way to the Ark. But to come so close!

As for the violence, I didn't have issue with it, though I typically prefer darker settings. My expectations were set there long ago from the whole 'we are a race of lovers' scene from whatever book that was.

Wilshire

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« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2017, 01:13:41 pm »
Loved TUC. Other than TDTCB, it's probably the best in the series if you ask me.

andrew, might I ask what your goal for this thread is? Are you hoping someone changes your mind, just looking to vent, or just gathering data ? Lots of people come around for different reasons, and I myself like to gather data on our participants ;)
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 01:16:33 pm by Wilshire »
One of the other conditions of possibility.

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« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2017, 01:23:21 pm »
I like it more and more every day, because it is absolutely a thematic powerhouse, even if it isn't a technical masterpiece.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Walter

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« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2017, 01:25:22 pm »
I liked it.  TUC is my favorite in the series.

Woden

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« Reply #23 on: August 21, 2017, 01:44:57 pm »
I like it more and more every day, because it is absolutely a thematic powerhouse, even if it isn't a technical masterpiece.

I liked and enjoyed it but it has some important flaws. Obscurity, confusion, abrupt ending...
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H

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« Reply #24 on: August 21, 2017, 02:09:52 pm »
I like it more and more every day, because it is absolutely a thematic powerhouse, even if it isn't a technical masterpiece.

I liked and enjoyed it but it has some important flaws. Obscurity, confusion, abrupt ending...

I actually think the ending is probably the most important thematic piece of the whole series though.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Nemojbatkastle

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« Reply #25 on: August 21, 2017, 03:24:25 pm »
Favorite book so far, the gut-punch of it would have been frustrating and pointless if this was the end of the series, instead of simply the resolution.

profgrape

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« Reply #26 on: August 21, 2017, 03:44:51 pm »
Like Glen Cook, Joe Abercrombie or Mark Lawrence, Bakker set out to defy genre conventions with TSA.  Unlike those authors, however, I think he went beyond defying thematic conventions and got into structural conventions. 

If TUC had been a Gene Wolfe or Cormac McCarthy novel, it wouldn't have been so jarring.   And despite my knowing that Bakker had a twist in store, I still had 30 years (!) of fantasy reading to Condition my structural expectations.   

Of all the endings I'd imagined for TUC, "salt and butchery" wasn't one of them.   Not just in theme (good guys lose BAD) but in structure -- the abruptness, the scriptural tone -- it was absolutely jarring.

That being said, I think it's among the most impactful, if not the most impactful, works of genre fiction I've ever read. 

Redeagl

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« Reply #27 on: August 21, 2017, 04:59:23 pm »
I love TUC, think that it provides narrative closure - if first you accept the arcs Bakker planned for TAE, and am not disturbed by the explicit violence therein.

We, the sick fucks, are the Few apparently.
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

- Chronicler of the Chroniclers

Yellow

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« Reply #28 on: August 21, 2017, 05:23:28 pm »
I drink black seed for breakfast.

Wait, where am I again?
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« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2017, 05:25:27 pm »
I love TUC, think that it provides narrative closure - if first you accept the arcs Bakker planned for TAE, and am not disturbed by the explicit violence therein.

We, the sick fucks, are the Few apparently.

I mean, I referenced Bakker's horror b-movie dick-eating moment but for me one that always got me was a cannibal fisting a dude's ass and pulling out his entire intestines like a rope.
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