The thing we're all missing

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Hogman

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« on: August 20, 2017, 10:50:50 am »
I can't find a thread anywhere that discusses the thing we've all missed, so this is it.

In the Unholy Consultation thread, Bakker says the following:

In TTT, Kellhus says the Mangaecca squat, chanting about Aurang's real body to relay him to the Synthese.  But, the Consult's Brain Trust seems to be restricted to just Mek, Shauriatus, Aurang and Aurax (and then the Mutilated).  Were there any other Minds among the Consult for the past 2 millenia or has it just been those four?  If so, given their .. dilapidated status how did Consult programs like breeding the Inversi actually function?  How did they manage it with so little sane manpower? 

Your second question leads me to believe that pretty much everyone has missed a certain boat, in which case, I can only say, RAFO!

3. It seems kind of foolish that the Consult would bring Dunyain back as prisoners. Was it simple arrogance that made them feel safe in doing so, or are you actually kind of saying that the Consult brain trust isn't that great and has degraded?

3) Hmmm. I'm beginning to suspect that something rather significant has gone unrecognized. Either way, humility is not among the many virtues enjoyed by the Consult.

I've been pondering this for a few days, and I have a theory. It goes like this:
The original Dunyain were composed of an Anasurimbor, and some "refugees". Who were these refugees? My theory is that they were agents of the Consult, whose mission was to protect the Anasurimbor until such a time as the Consult were strong enough to resurrect the No God. Since they were able to activate the sarcophagus with Nau Cayuti, they believed one of his descendants would be able to do the same. Some or all of the refugees/Dunyain have been working with the Consult the whole time, communicating with them via sorcery. This was why sorcery was considered blasphemous by the Dunyain - so the Anasurimbor would never be able to work out that the communication was taking place.

This would appear to answer both points above, namely that the extra brainpower was coming from the Dunyain, and the Dunyain were taken to the Ark not as prisoners but as comrades. We found out right at the end of TUC that at least one of the Dunyain possessed sorcery, which was already implied anyway by the fact that Kellhus considered them any kind of a threat. Maybe they knew sorcery all along?

Any thoughts on this theory? Any other theories? I have one big hole in mine that I can't fill: At the end of one of the books (the WLW?) the Consult are torturing people to try to find out what the Dunyain are. It appears they genuinely don't know of their existence.


SmilerLoki

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« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2017, 10:57:55 am »
Any thoughts on this theory? Any other theories? I have one big hole in mine that I can't fill: At the end of one of the books (the WLW?) the Consult are torturing people to try to find out what the Dunyain are. It appears they genuinely don't know of their existence.
Koringhus also doesn't remember any infighting between the Dunyain in his recollections of the fall of Ishual, while it should've happened if some Dunyain were traitors. It's also hard to believe the Dunyain wouldn't have discerned hidden agendas among themselves for so long.

MSJ

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« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2017, 11:01:18 am »
The Bardic Priest has always stuck in my mind as a Consult agent...
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Woden

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« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2017, 11:14:52 am »
What boat could be that certain one that Bakker mentioned?
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2017, 11:21:40 am »
What boat could be that certain one that Bakker mentioned?
I don't know. The Boatman in Ishterebinth? Something to do with the Sranc population evolution in the Western Yimaleti mountains?

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2017, 11:23:47 am »
What boat could be that certain one that Bakker mentioned?
I'm actually very confused as to him being literal or figurative here.

Frail

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« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2017, 12:11:09 pm »
I like the theory, but in none of the scenes where we get the Inchoroi they never mention something similar to this. And the Consult spent a great deal of time searching for Ishual in TWP-TTT. I would think they would have said something like
"Ah yes a ember, do you think that time has come you pretty pretty skin spy?

Madness

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« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2017, 01:06:03 pm »
I can't find a thread anywhere that discusses the thing we've all missed, so this is it.

I think the first thread went quickly off the rails so I support the reset but it's because its on the third page.

Three pages of contemporary threads. What a great time :)!
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profgrape

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« Reply #8 on: August 20, 2017, 01:16:31 pm »
My guess to the thing we missed is Ark and its capabilities. Just the fact that it could synthesize believable representations of Shauriutas and Kellhus mean it's still got some serious processing power left.

Also, the bit about the NG being a "prosthesis" suggests that the NG's abilities are tied to Ark.

Monkhound

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« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2017, 03:39:56 pm »
I don't have my TGO copy with me just now, but maybe there's something on Kellhus's monologue/ speech on the ship built by the just before Dagliash that we've missed? Anyway, I'll have a look when I'm home.
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Hogman

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« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2017, 05:28:46 pm »
I'm surprised people think RSB is referring to an actual boat. Surely it's just a figure of speech.

Monkhound

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« Reply #11 on: August 20, 2017, 05:49:58 pm »
I'm surprised people think RSB is referring to an actual boat. Surely it's just a figure of speech.

It wouldn't be the first time in history that a literal interpretation gives an actual hint ;)
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MSJ

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« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2017, 12:08:44 am »
Quote from:  Hogman
I'm surprised people think RSB is referring to an actual boat. Surely it's just a figure of speech.

+1
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2017, 03:40:49 am »
I had a bit of a think on this and have arrived at an answer that I think is satisfactory.

To begin, there are two things we can infer from Bakker's statements here;
1. He thinks it is something fairly obvious that many have missed.
2. It's not important enough for him to instantly clarify it.

For me, this induction rules out convoluted theories that defy contradiction like the one Hogman puts forward.

A far more straightforward explanation that follows from the points that Bakker is responding to is that the membership of the Consult is more fluid than people are assuming.

Their history actually points towards them being a lot more active in recruiting than simply maintaining the core membership. Ieva, the Aporetics, the Mangaecca, the Bardic Priest and other operatives who did things like destroying the White Fleet. For whatever reason, it seems like they haven't managed the trick of a generic method to provide immortality for humans.

I think they mostly are happy to get important people to join their gang. Aurang has powerful methods of seduction, and if they can get someone to look at the Inverse Fire then they are pretty much on the team. Seems reasonable to think they were confident the Dunyain they got into the Golden Room would join, and Shauriatus was simply jealous of his position as top dog (as per his internal monologue in The False Sun).

Following on from this thought, I really want to know who the Spearman in TUC was. I imagine if he was a sixth Mutilated, Kellhus would have been alerted to them before he entered the Golden Room.
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solipsisticurge

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« Reply #14 on: August 21, 2017, 06:44:20 am »
I've been pondering this for a few days, and I have a theory. It goes like this:
The original Dunyain were composed of an Anasurimbor, and some "refugees". Who were these refugees? My theory is that they were agents of the Consult, whose mission was to protect the Anasurimbor until such a time as the Consult were strong enough to resurrect the No God. Since they were able to activate the sarcophagus with Nau Cayuti, they believed one of his descendants would be able to do the same. Some or all of the refugees/Dunyain have been working with the Consult the whole time, communicating with them via sorcery. This was why sorcery was considered blasphemous by the Dunyain - so the Anasurimbor would never be able to work out that the communication was taking place.

This would appear to answer both points above, namely that the extra brainpower was coming from the Dunyain, and the Dunyain were taken to the Ark not as prisoners but as comrades. We found out right at the end of TUC that at least one of the Dunyain possessed sorcery, which was already implied anyway by the fact that Kellhus considered them any kind of a threat. Maybe they knew sorcery all along?

Any thoughts on this theory? Any other theories? I have one big hole in mine that I can't fill: At the end of one of the books (the WLW?) the Consult are torturing people to try to find out what the Dunyain are. It appears they genuinely don't know of their existence.

1. The Dunyain stumble upon Ishual, and thusly the last bastard Anasurimbor. Kind of strange the Consult would have knowledge of the redoubt (though possible, I suppose.) If they did, why not just have the Anasurimbor brought to them if they're concerned with the bloodline? Even in Ishual, a random earthquake, fire or plague could annihilate their best known chance at resurrecting the No-God. Why not lock him away in the Ark and keep cloning/Tekne-breeding him until needed?

2. Bakker said (in the AMA I believe) that the Dunyain were refugees, angry at irrationality and magic for destroying their lives. I see no reason to question this.

3. The Mutilated are heavily scarred and ruined from the fighting at Ishual, and, as pointed out above, Koringhus makes no comment concerning traitors in their midst. Ergo, they were wounded severely fighting Sranc and Ishroi, which makes little sense if they were secret allies.

All that said, I could be wrong - wouldn't be the first time where this series is concerned! But I think our boat lies elsewhere. (Though I do wonder at a canon version of the Dunyain's pre-Ishual origins... perhaps a future Atrocity Tale, if it isn't pertinent to TNG?)
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