TDTCB, Ch. 9

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What Came Before

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« Reply #15 on: April 19, 2013, 11:16:47 am »
Quote from: Madness
+1

What Came Before

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« Reply #16 on: April 19, 2013, 11:16:59 am »
Quote from: Wilshire
Like immunity from, say, your wife leaving you for some schmuck you help off the streets? = P

What Came Before

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« Reply #17 on: April 19, 2013, 11:17:09 am »
Quote from: sologdin
so, an immediate parallel drawn between the epigraph's "we are a race of lovers" (I.9 at 254) and the general content of the chapter. not sure if it's flattering or not, unless the parallel is not drawn with the narrator, but with guys like psammatus, a priest who is also a regular consumer of the erotic services offered in the vatican's brothels (I.9 at 255).

fuligin ejaculate FTW. (I.9 at 259).

we see further superimposition of the "ancient" on the "recent" in DA's tour of sudica:  "sheep and half-buried stone" is placed atop "one of the great provinces" (I.9 at 261).  despite DA's opening structuration, he "seemed to seach out places like these, places that slumbered, that dreamed of ancient times." (I.9 at 262).  becoming "chroniclers of the Three Seas" was a means for each mandati to "be one man instead of two" (id.). 

"sorcerers were not accustomed to women" (I.9 at 264).  haha nerds.

an oddity of anagnorisis:  "He remembered flinching when she climaxed and thinking: That cry is mine! Mine! But he owned nothing of her" (I.9 at 264-65).  this is a difficult realization even for settings (such as, yaknow, actual earthling history) wherein ownership of persons is de jure abolished.  for DA to understand, in a setting filled with horrible bondage and sexual properties, that he has not title to her is quite an accomplishment.  and yet, as is the case for most liberated persons, the ideology of affect claims the property even though the intellect accepts the truth of emancipation.  nicely done: DA is both barbarian with juvenile emotional claims and sophisticated man of letters with mature politics of personhood.

chapter thereafter dominated by his graph (I.9 at 267-70).  anyone tried to translate the in-setting writings at the end yet? (I at 594).

distinction drawn between mere harlots and temple-prostitutes (I.9 at 271).   anyone worked out the theological doctrine on that question yet?

we are told that men stand midway between women and gods (I.9 at 272).  is there a plainer statement that women are ontologically/theologically disabled in the setting?

What Came Before

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« Reply #18 on: April 19, 2013, 11:17:20 am »
Quote from: Madness
Sumna

And the Nonman King cried words that sting:
"Now to me you must confess,
for death above you hovers!"
And the Emissary answered ever wary:
"We are a race of flesh,
we are a race of lovers."
- "Ballad of the Inchoroi," Ancient Kuniuri Folk Song

Early Winter, 4111 Year-of-the-Tusk, Sumna[/b]

9.1 - The Consult Creeps

Esmenet reflects on Achamian's departure, Inrau's death, and how she loves the dimensions of Achamian's life, not neccessarily Achamian. And most importantly, the construction and maintenance of narrative thread: Esmenet's daughter and how Esmenet's thoughts always return to her (p276).

Then the oft debated stranger enters.

I find it very interesting that Achamian warned Esmenet like he did. Surely, he didn't take such precautions with all of his informants - he warns her as an outsider of the Game, not a player, not yet a student, an innocent he's involved.

But, most importantly, he warns her with seemingly no belief that what he says will come to pass. Achamian barely believes in the Mandate's Mandate anymore, he's very much going through the motions.

Yet everything he says comes to pass. And that knowledge seems to save her life, as I'm sure disposing of a random whore who's never left Sumna before would be only too easy for the Consult. They have little trouble with Geshrunni, Captain of the Javreh...

9.2 - Little Sumna, Big Three Seas

Our girl decides to leave Sumna. Honestly, huge decision for someone in that kind of society, especially a whore from a city that marks theirs.

Again, the reflections on Achamian's choice to warn her and her daughter...

Reading over the quoted insistence by Achamian makes me wonder again what Inrau found in Maithanet's offices?

And Esmenet strikes out... for Achamian?

9.3 - Achamian, Narrator, Maker of Maps of the Plot

I think this is a passage many of Bakker's core fans enjoy. The reflections on the history and worldbuilding are pleasing :). lockesnow commented on the timing of the new Dream, which is interesting, and also, I think the forth Dream from TDTCB but I'd have to recheck the count - The Day of the Mog's Inception (p283).

Achamian reflects on investigating within the Thousand Temples after Inrau's death. Suicide, though, we, the reader, and Esmenet, know otherwise.

Achamian reflects on his need for Esmenet, some thoughts on love, on the feelings of possession that this engenders - sologdin hit upon that nicely as well, in terms within possible historical context. That immersion into someone else is something that seems to define an aspect of "love" for me, an interesting demarcation (p285).

"Esmenet, the Whore of Sumna" (p287) quote and subsequent paragraph seems huge as lockesnow explored. This chapter seems to set Esmenet up into a player that she's not...

(click to show/hide)

Then we get Achamian's great Map O' Plots :D: highlighting all the "relevant" mysteries.

(click to show/hide)

During the process, Achamian realizes, as per direction by the Mandate to the Holy War, that somehow reigniting his relationship with Proyas is the only way to gain information about Maithanet.

9.4 - Prison Sumna, Prison World

I find it interesting that as Esmenet leaves the Gate of Pelts, she imagines the World as a prison because leaving Sumna is nothing (p292). Why a prison, I wonder? Does it reflect her feeling trapped by her circumstances in life?

Again, the invocation of "Esmenet, the Whore of Sumna" with the recollection that her imitation Gierra tat will always mark her as a whore of Sumna. And immediately after she asks the Goddess' counsel (p293).

"She was not a wife." (p293) - surprised you didn't note that one too, solo. Noting a woman's apparent worthless in the eyes of society, and apparently, as sologdin highlighted, the metaphysical realm.

But she seeks Achamian - to return his favour of warning and to invalidate the doubts that so plague his heart...

Aural

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« Reply #19 on: October 20, 2014, 09:57:35 pm »
I really hope that there aren't any continuation errors involved here when it comes to the 'client'. The thing definitely sounds like it's Inchoroi: He used magic, had a 'dragon roar' (the thing at the end of TWP had a dragon gasp) and of crouse, his seed was black.

Some suggested that he used a glamour. But have we seen any instance of glamour use anywhere in the series? Plus he's eight+ feet tall and has a bigger than average phallus--to put it mildly... Esmenet should've noticed something.

Wilshire

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« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2014, 03:20:22 pm »

With the sound of flapping wings at the window, I would have to guess it was either some kind of illusionary magery or bonafide shapeshifting. The former is mentioned once, the latter not at all.

False Sun spoilers, TTT glossary spoilers maybe:
(click to show/hide)
One of the other conditions of possibility.

SilentRoamer

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« Reply #21 on: October 22, 2014, 03:04:32 pm »

With the sound of flapping wings at the window, I would have to guess it was either some kind of illusionary magery or bonafide shapeshifting. The former is mentioned once, the latter not at all.

False Sun spoilers, TTT glossary spoilers maybe:
(click to show/hide)


False Sun spoilers, TTT glossary spoilers maybe:
(click to show/hide)

Just my thoughts :)

Another interesting thing would be:

Spoiler for AE:
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 03:06:44 pm by SilentRoamer »

Aural

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« Reply #22 on: October 22, 2014, 03:27:23 pm »

With the sound of flapping wings at the window, I would have to guess it was either some kind of illusionary magery or bonafide shapeshifting. The former is mentioned once, the latter not at all.

False Sun spoilers, TTT glossary spoilers maybe:
(click to show/hide)


So was there an actual Inchoroi in the room?

SilentRoamer

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« Reply #23 on: October 22, 2014, 03:33:35 pm »
I always took this scene similar to what Kellhus described.

The Inchoroi consciousness is projected onto the Synthese frame (albeit slightly diminished by its new shell) then from there the birdy does some Glamours and pleasures Esmi.

Aural

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« Reply #24 on: October 22, 2014, 03:38:08 pm »
So the glamour is not only something that you see, but the Synthese produced an actual fully-functioning person that you can touch and have sex with and even leaves black semen on you?

SilentRoamer

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« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2014, 03:57:37 pm »
Spoilers for TTT:
(click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: October 22, 2014, 10:41:10 pm by SilentRoamer »

Wilshire

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« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2014, 04:08:49 pm »
@SR: TTT spoiler tags.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Aural

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« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2014, 04:09:55 pm »
I just find the idea of the Synthese having sex with her and producing that semen to be a bit far-fetched. But that might be it.

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Wilshire

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« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2014, 05:19:09 pm »
TWP epilogue spoilers, TTT spoilers
(click to show/hide)
One of the other conditions of possibility.

The Sharmat

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« Reply #29 on: February 04, 2015, 11:38:04 am »
Yeah I'm thinking now that Esmenet was raped by the bird-Synthese. And honestly, given certain real life avians, a giant (relative to the body that possesses it) extrudable penis isn't actually that weird or implausible. And is exactly the kind of thing an Inchoroi would make sure its vessel had.

So the human figure was a glamour. Yes, the glamour around Golgotterath had additional properties, but that was a glamour to end all glamours, and shouldn't be taken as typical, I think.

I find it interesting that as Esmenet leaves the Gate of Pelts, she imagines the World as a prison because leaving Sumna is nothing (p292). Why a prison, I wonder? Does it reflect her feeling trapped by her circumstances in life?
She identified Sumna with her imprisonment (though it's more a metaphorical prison describing the role she's forced to play in her life). But when she left Sumna, she felt nothing. No sense of escape or danger or accomplishment. She still feels a prisoner. So she moves the frame of her prison to encompass the entire world.