[TUC Spoilers] Esmenet the Angelic Ciphrang

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Wilshire

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« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2019, 12:52:21 pm »
That's definitely something that has been proposed in some form or another.

The nature of the gods being 'outside time' yet seeing events within it, leads to some interesting, yet endlessly regressive, thinking.

On top of the time strangeness, there's also the fact that the events in the books tend to repeat themselves, though in most cases on a larger scale. The First Apocalypse, the first Ordeal, even writ small as the Vulgar Holy War and the Holy War, not to mention all the parallels between the various Anasurimbor men.

Its a very reciprocal system, and Bakker seems very fond of characters creating their own demise. So while I'm not sure its the way the story is going necessarily, I think it would fit within the bounds of what has been set up so far - that the events in the story created the gods which in turn retroactively create the events that lead to their creation.
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« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2019, 10:15:09 pm »
Well, I don't think that the gods are eternal at all.  In fact, even Kellhus points out that they aren't eternal at all, since the horizon of their "vision" is "limited" and so he posits that this means that the No-God must, at some point, win.

There are other things as well, but as per my huge rambling threads on souls, I don't buy that the Earwan gods are eternal, or even divine at all, per se.  Rather, they are beings of a collective (or collected) subconscious, Hegelian, Geist.

In fact, this is probably why they "hunger" for experience, because they, as a-temporal, cannot experience anything.  They just simply are.  They are as they are and they are as they have always been, that is, without time experienced, everything just simply is as it is, without a "movement through" time, everything just always has been and always will be, just as it is now.

I have this hunch that if I could get the time to read Heidegger's Being and Time, there would be something in there about this.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Dora Vee

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« Reply #17 on: November 28, 2019, 05:28:40 pm »
But, if it's a collective consciousness, then it had to come from somewhere? The universe itself? That could be considered an "always was". 
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
                          -Ajencis, the fourth analytic of man

H

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« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2019, 01:57:26 pm »
But, if it's a collective consciousness, then it had to come from somewhere? The universe itself? That could be considered an "always was".
Well, maybe?  But not as I see it.  Bakker has likened Earwa itself to a mind.  I don't presuppose it always was.  It was once it was.  Before that?  Well, who knows.

I guess if we want though, we can consider something like a panpsychism argument, which is all well and good, as far as it goes.  The key though, to me, is that it isn't just consciousness, whatever that is.  The key is the self-consciousness which critically is human consciousness.  And, critically, that is what Earwan spirits are self-consciousness "objectified" in the sense of somehow being "external objects."

Like Sci usually bring up, the cosmology of Earwa is a sort of monism, it is all just different "parts" of the same thing.  There is no "separate" realm of the Outside vs. the Inside or the Real.  It is all just different relational parts of the same "system: Earwa."
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2019, 09:26:07 am »
Indeed. The Gods are just another way of perceiving consciousness, different from what more conventional beings like Men observe. Men move through time, which creates a certain frame of reference for conscious experience. The Gods do not, and so their frame of reference is different, atemporal. The consciousness itself, though, needs not be fractured for this, only perceived as such by Men.

And I agree, atemporal doesn't mean eternal. There is a limit to their being, and this is likely why the World will be shut, i.e. "the Inchoroi must win".

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« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2019, 02:08:00 pm »
Indeed. The Gods are just another way of perceiving consciousness, different from what more conventional beings like Men observe. Men move through time, which creates a certain frame of reference for conscious experience. The Gods do not, and so their frame of reference is different, atemporal. The consciousness itself, though, needs not be fractured for this, only perceived as such by Men.

Well, I think Subjective self-consciousness is "fractured" in the subjective experiential sense.  Because the monism "appears" as pieces of the whole.  Of course, there are no pieces, since the whole is still the whole, differentiation is a sort of experiential "illusion" of perspective.  But I pretty much agree with what you said.

Also, this is likely why the Nonmen consider the 100 as "Principles."  Because they are exactly that, conceptual "beings" (in more psychoanalytic terms, akin to Jung use, a "complex") of consciousness (self-consciousness).  They are anthropomorphic only because that is how consciousness (self-consciousness) experiences and describes them, a sort of narrative contrivance, externalized as a sort of psychological projection.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2019, 03:51:29 pm »
Yeah, pretty much my thinking here!

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« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2019, 06:19:51 pm »
Yeah, pretty much my thinking here!

Well, it's nice to know that jumble of jargon makes sense to anyone else, besides me, out there, haha.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2019, 08:55:28 am »
Well, we did kill the thread for everyone else, it seems. The glamorous life of having no friends.

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« Reply #24 on: December 06, 2019, 02:13:41 pm »
Well, we did kill the thread for everyone else, it seems. The glamorous life of having no friends.
If I have a skill, it's probably at being a buzz-kill.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #25 on: December 06, 2019, 08:25:14 pm »
Buzz-skill.

...
Am I helping?
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« Reply #26 on: December 06, 2019, 09:50:56 pm »
Buzz-skill.

...
Am I helping?
Well, you probably can't hurt more than we already have, so, yes?
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

mostly.harmless

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« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2019, 12:45:14 am »
Lol

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