Do All Skin-Spies Have Male Genitalia?

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MSJ

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« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2017, 12:25:02 am »
Quote from:  tleilaxu
I've heard this before and I don't buy it. It's too strange for a gay man to obsess over Serwe. If you ask me, he's just bisexual.

Lol. Serwe was his proof, proof of what? His proof that everything the people said about him behind his back wasn't true. His proof that his love for Moe wasn't real. His proof that he was not GAY! Tleilaxu, im sorry man, but you missed a huge part of CnaŘir's arc and what exactly drive him to madness.

ETA: I grant you yes, he is bi-sexual. But, that is just as bad to CnaŘir and what Moe did to him. Remember, Conphas had captives raped in front of The People at Kyudea because it was blasphemous to the People. When, CnaŘir knew he was in the presence of another Dunyain he took her as proof of his manhood and to guard against the New Dunyain (Kellhus).
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 12:47:39 am by MSJ »
ôNo. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ĹYursalkaĺ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

solipsisticurge

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« Reply #31 on: August 29, 2017, 12:44:05 am »
(why do the murder monsters have to be rape monsters as well?).

Sorry to tangent but Bakker's talked about this one a couple times before. In his mind, the most indigestible horror of modern society seems to be the serial killing rapist.
Ah. Within the confines of the setting it makes sense due to the Inchoroi tendency toward the worst aspects of violent maleness. I was just offering an example toward that (and their general lack of pursuit of cold efficacy), not criticizing the authorial decision.

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solipsisticurge

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« Reply #32 on: August 29, 2017, 12:44:19 am »
(This was an accidental double post from my phone, please disregard and carry on. All is well. We have always been at war with Eastasia.)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 06:25:52 am by solipsisticurge »
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #33 on: August 29, 2017, 12:49:26 am »
Quote from:  tleilaxu
I've heard this before and I don't buy it. It's too strange for a gay man to obsess over Serwe. If you ask me, he's just bisexual.

Lol. Serwe was his proof, proof of what? His proof that everything the people said about him behind his back wasn't true. His proof that his love for Moe wasn't real. His proof that he was not GAY! Tleilaxu, im sorry man, but you missed a huge part of CnaŘir's arc and what exactly drive him to madness.

ETA: I grant you yes, he is bi-sexual. But, that is just as bad to CnaŘir and what Moe did to him. Remember, Conphas had captives raped in front of The People at Kyudea because it was blasphemous to the People. When, CnaŘir knew he was in the presence of another Dunyain he took her as proof of his manhood and to guard against the New Dunyain (Kellhus).
That... actually makes sense. Might need to adjust my opinion here.

Wilshire

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« Reply #34 on: August 30, 2017, 12:24:23 am »
As I said, I think it adds a lot of depth to him as a whole.

I don't agree, but one might argue that Moenghus "made him" gay/bi. I think there are passages in Cnaiur's POVs that suggest this isn't the case (IIRC, sorry nothing I can quote off the cuff), but Dunyain-level mind-fuckery is basically magic so anything is possible. In either case, his love for Moenghus is real as far as he's concerned, which I think really drives his character.

At least for me, when considering this possible perspective, a lot Cnaiur's scenes change pretty dramatically.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

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« Reply #35 on: August 30, 2017, 12:43:20 am »
Wilshire, I think you hit the nail on the head. Moe did bring this out of CnaŘir. What does CnaŘir say when describing the Dunyain? Anyone? Ok. THEY MAKE YOU LOVE!!!!
ôNo. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ĹYursalkaĺ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

solipsisticurge

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« Reply #36 on: August 30, 2017, 06:34:43 am »
In this thread, I learned there were readers who hadn't made that inference concerning Cnaiur.

His whole character stems back to the line from TGO for me: "the soul of a hero, if not for the Dunyain." (Possibly paraphrasing.) His seduction by Moenghus fueled the enmity of his people toward him, which bent his whole life toward pursuit of the Scylvendi equivalent of the Absolute, striving in all matters to be the most Scylvendi - the most violent of all men, militarily and sexually; vicious in his condemnation of any other (deviant) way, or anything outside the People.

Despite his barbaric nature and the untold suffering he's caused in the world, his is one of the most tragic fates in the series, to my mind. We see post-Holy War that he is able to earn the admiration and loyalty of his people, and steer them toward at least marginally better ends (ending the internecine strife and standing unified, albeit in support of Apocalypse). What might his life had amounted to had Moenghus not crossed the Steppe?
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« Reply #37 on: August 30, 2017, 11:47:50 am »
As I said, I think it adds a lot of depth to him as a whole.

I don't agree, but one might argue that Moenghus "made him" gay/bi. I think there are passages in Cnaiur's POVs that suggest this isn't the case (IIRC, sorry nothing I can quote off the cuff), but Dunyain-level mind-fuckery is basically magic so anything is possible. In either case, his love for Moenghus is real as far as he's concerned, which I think really drives his character.

At least for me, when considering this possible perspective, a lot Cnaiur's scenes change pretty dramatically.

Moe most certainly seemed to manipulate him.  What CnaiŘr would have been had he not been manipulated is certainly open for debate, but, as tradition-bound as the Scylvendi are, it seems unlikely that he would have been substantially different than any other Scylvendi.  Slightly different?  Yes, because he already was, which is why Moe could manipulate him in the first place.  (Granted, Moe could probably have manipulated anyone, but that doesn't mean CnaiŘr wasn't more susceptible.)

I think placing a label on CnaiŘr is inevitably going to lead to some wrong conclusions.  He isn't just gay, or straight, or bi-sexual.  He is someone who, placed in a series of literally world-shaping events, simply is (by and large) severely fractured.  So, in one way he is straight.  And in another clearly not.  That is the paradox.  That is why he inevitably goes mad.  Because who he is cannot be boiled down to a simple label, or a simple narrative to explain it.


And, yeah, skin-spies all are male.  So are all Inchoroi and all Wracu.  It's probably mostly about how Tekne breeding works.  But also about how the Tekne goad works.
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MSJ

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« Reply #38 on: August 30, 2017, 02:26:05 pm »
H, I think what opened CnaŘir up to Moe's manipulations was the Wolf. He didn't kill the Wolf like he was supposed to and was in doubt. Moe made it clear that nevertheless he "killed the Wolf". This showed Moe his susceptibility and was the opening by which he took care of CnaŘir. Plus, he gained Moe through his mother, who we know was Moes lover. So, yes CnaŘir was different, but Moe did exactly what you said above, with that wee but of an opening.
ôNo. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ĹYursalkaĺ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2017, 04:08:07 pm »
In this thread, I learned there were readers who hadn't made that inference concerning Cnaiur.

His whole character stems back to the line from TGO for me: "the soul of a hero, if not for the Dunyain." (Possibly paraphrasing.) His seduction by Moenghus fueled the enmity of his people toward him, which bent his whole life toward pursuit of the Scylvendi equivalent of the Absolute, striving in all matters to be the most Scylvendi - the most violent of all men, militarily and sexually; vicious in his condemnation of any other (deviant) way, or anything outside the People.
I'm on board with all this, my objection was that he was explicitly gay.

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« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2017, 05:01:08 pm »
Hmm... damn. I doubt Bakker intended it but not achieving the wolf kill is such an interesting topic. And it explicitly mirrors Kellhus disruption of Sorweel's coming Elking.

I know FB and I have discussed coming of age rituals at length, many times.
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« Reply #41 on: October 24, 2017, 10:13:17 pm »
The Skin Spy in the Skin Eaters was referred to as "girl" by its Synthese handler and never displays an erection.  My guess is that the Skin Spies have human like genitalia and this is a flaw when impersonating members of the opposite sex.