Big question about the consult's intentions.

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Fëanor

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« on: August 29, 2017, 02:47:09 am »
Hello everyone. First of all I want to say that I am not new. This is not my first post. Many years have passed since my last participation in the forum... But now it's not The Three Seas forum... some moves have taken place, some migrations... WHAT DO I SEE? WHO ARE WE?
I'm Fëanor and I've been reading the books for eight years now.
Yeah, the one who killed the “Dunyain and Nonmen” thread via Sheldrake, who asked about a sea mammal at the end of TJE (joke) and who posted a thread called "The heart", asking about the haloes and the heart Kellhus showed to the crowds in TWP (http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=59.0).

The big question is:
Why, if the Consult was waiting for Kellhus to put him in the sarcophagus and activate the No God, I say, why try to kill him over and over again?
I re-read the scene with the Dunsult (Wizard of Oz? we already had the whirlwind...), Kellhus, Malowebi, Mekeritrig and Aurax (and then the Skin-spies and Kelmomas). It does not seem that they have everything controlled and that from the beginning they want to put Kelmomas in the sarcophagus; because if it were the case, why didn't they do it sooner? Why didn't they activate Mog Pharau once Kelmomas entered the Ark? And, if what they wanted was for Kellhus to become the No God, I go back to the initial question: Why do they try to kill him, not one, but many times? To recall only the last, we have Mekeritrig having the Ursranc throw him hundreds of Chorae arrows during the parley (previously he threw his weapons of light at him). Then we have the sun-spear directly impacting his wards, breaking them, several times; only teleportation saves him, and even allows him to shoot down a Horn with the spear (doesn' seem the perfect developement of the thousandfold thought of the Dunsult, either).
Finally Aurang does not pose a threat against him, but he also fights him. And in the golden room, Mekeritrig jumps on him, to attack him (also with no real threat, which causes him to be strangled).
In brief:
Well then, what was the intention of the Consult? Killing Kellhus or convincing him to enter the sarcophagus to achieve the Resumption? Either way there is no justification for their conduct in that final scene. If everything was a ruse… how come they would know about Ajokli? If it wasn’t, why not insert little Kel and just be done with it? If they wanted Kellhus in the sarcofhagus, why try so hard to kill him? Were they just improvising and things happenned that way by miraculous chance? (I leave the gods out since they can't see the No God)

Another matter:  I think the second son of Mimara and Achamian is born after the Resumption, and for that reason is born dead. Someone wrote that the birth was earlier ... but in sooth the No-God was already active; He/it had not been manifested yet, was shielding him/itself in the hologram of Kellhus to gain time with Horde 5.0, but the curse of the wombs had already begun.

Finally, I loved the books. I passed a week going to sleep at 5 a.m. (waking up at 9 to go to work) just to re-read TGO and read TUC. The meat got me.
But books don't come easyly to Mandos, that's why it took me so long to post something. That and the migration of the horde, I mean. I read then lots of threads of TUC trying to clarify some of the events of the book, check your crazy theories and laugh a bit. I did not find this question, though. Sorry if someone already post it and I just missed it.

Good to be here again.

Regards, from my dwelling in Mandos.
I don't know why I feel so skinned alive.

Cüréthañ

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« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2017, 09:44:40 am »
Hail Fëanor.

My thought is simply that they did not want to activate the Object until Kellhus was dealt with, one way or another.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Sausuna

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« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2017, 12:30:30 pm »
I think the matter can possibly be ascribed to uncertainty and needing to kill Kellhus regardless. It seems possible that, even given their intellect, the Mutilated haven't fully grasped the implementation of the Carapace. So their plan gave the greatest chance of achieving their goal.
- Kill Kellhus outside the Ark, The Ordeal breaks, we research more.
- Have Kellhus get inside the Carapace and become the No-God, winning.
             - Kellhus gets in and dies, we show The Ordeal, it breaks, we research more.
- Have Kellhus get inside, kill him, we try Kelmomas.

Had they simply thrown Kelmomas in ASAP, it presents the very real chance that Kellhus survives the fight and manages to slay it. Given he's a teleporting super-sorcerer with the ability to understand certain tekne artifacts at a glance. But should he either die outside the Ark, become the No-God, or die inside the Ark, few to none could manage. It wouldn't be a stretch (imo) to think the Mutilated had the backup plan of becoming immortal via the Tekne to find a more suitable host. I still find it unlikely that their discovery of Kelmomas was much more than a kind of a fluke. And we aren't sure their own understanding of what kind of subject was necessary.

As for the second child, I don't think it is clearly born after Resumption. All that time of hard travel and snorting dead Nonmen might have played a role in the child's situation. We don't actually know if the No-God was activated yet.


Duskweaver

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« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2017, 01:13:25 pm »
I want Mimara's second child to have been the first victim of the second Death of Birth... but I also want Mimara looking upon the Carapace with the Judging Eye to be the event that completed the activation of the No-God and System Resumption. Those two things can't both be true, though. Or can they? Maybe an event so Reality-breaking as the birth of the No-God and the murder of meaning should arrive heralded by paradox?

That bit about "respecting the false Prophecies as well as the true" in whichever book it was keeps coming back to me. Seems like the Consult really wanted Mimara at Golgotterath for some reason.
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Fëanor

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« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2017, 03:41:13 pm »
Yeah, that sounds ok if Captain Hindsight, from South Park, says so. But they didn't know that, and they wanted the Celmomian prophecy to be fulfilled by an Anasurimbor. They needed Kellhus. Kellhus's death outside the Ark might be (without Kel) a defeat, unless they tried to find another Anasurimbor to start the Object (capture Kayutas). And they didn't know about Ajokli either. Things turned out very conviniently for the Dunsult, in th end. Superbly good to read, anyway, I don't complain about that.

I don't agree about Mimara's child. Or, I misunderstood the scene when the sarcophagus floats down, disguised by Kellhus hologram, before the Ordeal. Everyone is in silence. A baby wails. Then "the second birth was mercifully quick". Unless you mean that the Resumption was iniciated but not completed... but we don't have any piece of information to confirm that conjecture either, do we?
EDIT: yeah, I was always remembering that passage form TJE (Aurang telling the thing called Somanduta to protect Mimara in order to follow false and true prophecies).
RE EDIT: Or was it in TWLW?
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 03:52:20 pm by Fëanor »
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Sausuna

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« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2017, 04:15:23 pm »
Yeah, that sounds ok if Captain Hindsight, from South Park, says so. But they didn't know that, and they wanted the Celmomian prophecy to be fulfilled by an Anasurimbor. They needed Kellhus. Kellhus's death outside the Ark might be (without Kel) a defeat, unless they tried to find another Anasurimbor to start the Object (capture Kayutas). And they didn't know about Ajokli either. Things turned out very conviniently for the Dunsult, in th end. Superbly good to read, anyway, I don't complain about that.
I don't follow the hindsight comment. These are Dunyain, they plan for as many conceivable variables as possible. We know they didn't need Kellhus, as evidenced by the fact they used someone else. The contingency very well could have been to capture or breed his other children (dude had a lotta kids - Kayutas,  Serwa, Kelmomas, Inrilatas, Theliopa, The Survivor and his son. Not clear if they knew who was dead or alive, but at least some were clearly alive). Sure, they wanted Kellhus to be the No-God. But that doesn't mean they didn't plan for alternatives. Hence the fact they packed the room with a hundred skin-spies with Chorae. There's no question in turned out well for them, but it was also not Kellhus' best play given the result of his bargain put him in a vulnerable position to be possessed/defeated.

Quote
I don't agree about Mimara's child. Or, I misunderstood the scene when the sarcophagus floats down, disguised by Kellhus hologram, before the Ordeal. Everyone is in silence. A baby wails. Then "the second birth was mercifully quick". Unless you mean that the Resumption was iniciated but not completed... but we don't have any piece of information to confirm that conjecture either, do we?
EDIT: yeah, I was always remembering that passage form TJE (Aurang telling the thing called Somanduta to protect Mimara in order to follow false and true prophecies).
RE EDIT: Or was it in TWLW?
What I mean is, the scene narratively (from what I'm seeing online/recalling, since I don't have the book with me atm) was the both births happen, then they see holo-Kellhus on the Vigil. So the timeline isn't precisely clear that it was birth, Resumption, birth. It could have been birth, birth, Resumption. It seemingly could have gone either way.

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2017, 04:23:22 pm »
I wonder if the Mutilated might have been aware since the start that these supposed attempts on Kellhus' life were not likely to actually kill him. In fact, their goal may have been to get Kellhus to Golgotterath sooner to start Resumption. I don't think they originally planned on using anyone but Kellhus - Kelmomas was a last-minute change that happened to work. Of course, with the non-linear view of time and all that, Kelmomas had always been the No-God, but I believe the Mutilated just misinterpreted the Celmomian prophecy.
And, since Bakker mentioned in the AMA that putting Inrilatas in the Carapace would not have worked, it can't just be a matter of Anasûrimbor blood. For all we know, if they had succeeded in inserting Kellhus it would not have worked either, same for Kayûtas or Serwa.


I don't agree about Mimara's child. Or, I misunderstood the scene when the sarcophagus floats down, disguised by Kellhus hologram, before the Ordeal. Everyone is in silence. A baby wails. Then "the second birth was mercifully quick". Unless you mean that the Resumption was iniciated but not completed... but we don't have any piece of information to confirm that conjecture either, do we?
EDIT: yeah, I was always remembering that passage form TJE (Aurang telling the thing called Somanduta to protect Mimara in order to follow false and true prophecies).
RE EDIT: Or was it in TWLW?

The cause of the second twin's stillbirth seems to be unclear, since, like you said, it seems to happen before Resumption. Then again, I can't fully discard it as a possibility, as the timeline of events involving the No-God has more to it than it seems (thinking of Werthead's theory of a time paradox resolved by the Judging Eye).
It's possible, of course, that the second twin was stillborn because women with the Judging Eye supposedly have stillborn children (though that does not explain why the first twin lived).
There is also the mundane explanation of a premature birth, combined with the effects of qirri in fetal development, lack of proper nutrition, etc. (I don't think this was the case but had to mention it).
I believe the passage you're referring to is in TWLW, yes.
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

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« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2017, 04:50:32 pm »
I have believed that the 2nd baby was the first stillborn caused by the No-God walking. It makes sense. Why would one be born healthy and the other not? We have several instances of people telling Mimara she carries twins. So both were alive and healthy until that point. Its also foreshadowing that, indeed, TNG will walk.

Since, I don't buy into anything Bakker says in the AMA's and such (which isn't a dig on Bakker, I don't think he should show his hand at all.), the Baby Kellhus theory makes more and more sense. Especially combined with, "no questions about halos" we got from the Con. The halos were not related to Ajokli and the only other one with halos was Mimara. And we know she is holy, it simple deduction that says Kellhus is holy also.
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« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2017, 05:26:12 pm »
Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Fëanor.

Love the avatar.
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Fëanor

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« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2017, 05:35:19 pm »
The Dunyain see many posibilities, thousandfold thought ok. But that doesn't seem to fit with trying to kill him outside the Ark, if they meant to use it to start Resumption. And they didn't expect that Full-Ajokli, I think. They don't forsee everything.

I don´t have the book but I re-read that sequence yesterday: It´s birth, Kellhus hologram descending, silence, wail, and the narrator tells the second birth was mercifully quick, Esmenet put away the blue baby (paraphrasing) and Achamian never knew about it. Ok, he didn't say when that second birth took place, but he describe it in that scene. I understood it took place then, but you can read that it had happened before.

EDIT: thanks Madness
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 05:40:17 pm by Fëanor »
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Fëanor

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« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2017, 05:51:29 pm »
One last thought (too many). When Mimara checked her own belly with the Eye (still pregnant)... it blanked.
I think this means that Souls get into the world at the moment of birth. That explains why the No-God, sealing the world from incoming souls, kills not only babies conceived after Resumption, but also unborn babies concieved before Resumption. That explains why Mimara didn't see anything in her womb.
Sorry if this has been debated somewhere else. Or maybe there's nothing to debate and this was obvious?
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Sausuna

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« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2017, 06:00:28 pm »
The Dunyain see many posibilities, thousandfold thought ok. But that doesn't seem to fit with trying to kill him outside the Ark, if they meant to use it to start Resumption. And they didn't expect that Full-Ajokli, I think. They don't forsee everything.

I don´t have the book but I re-read that sequence yesterday: It´s birth, Kellhus hologram descending, silence, wail, and the narrator tells the second birth was mercifully quick, Esmenet put away the blue baby (paraphrasing) and Achamian never knew about it. Ok, he didn't say when that second birth took place, but he describe it in that scene. I understood it took place then, but you can read that it had happened before.

EDIT: thanks Madness
  No, I don't think they expected Ajokli I doubt they necessarily expected to find Kelmomas either. But still, I think the idea that they would have preferred to kill Kellhus and use another Anasurimbor is plenty fitting, if they could. It would have still fit with the Celmoman prophecy.



As for the scene, so I'm looking at it right now on Chapter 19.
Achamian is sitting on the corpse of a Bashrag, thinking about the fact he has a son from the first birth.
The Quya attack the Scranc in the Canal, slaughtering them.
"It flees!" some Longbeard cried from the parapets above. "The Horde! Fleeeeees!"
Bunch of dudes are all cheering.
It mentions the second birth being mercifully quick and that Achamian would never know what became of it, the dead twin. How Esmenet gets rid of it.
Achamian gets off the dead Bashrag and sits on the thing's head.

Section break.

Describes the scene again with the fallen horn. Nansur Columnaries and Eumarnan Grandees watching Scranc fleeing.
General Inrilil ab Cinganjehoi yelling how the Soulless bolt from the wrath of the Souled.
Notes how many (more than a million) corpses are around.
"Then the keen-eyed spied Him, and jousting cheers became a tempest of ecstasy and adulation. The Holy Aspect-Emperor stood upon the Vigil, high on theon theward face of the surviving Horn."

Fëanor

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« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2017, 06:10:32 pm »
If you do have the book, there is nothing to say. I was speaking by memory.
A friend of mine borrowed it (and there is another waiting in line), so it will be a time until I can check it again.
EDIT: Anyway, when the horde flees, it means that Resumption took place, IMO. Second birth could have been just then.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2017, 06:12:54 pm by Fëanor »
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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2017, 06:39:51 pm »
The Dunyain see many posibilities, thousandfold thought ok. But that doesn't seem to fit with trying to kill him outside the Ark, if they meant to use it to start Resumption. And they didn't expect that Full-Ajokli, I think. They don't forsee everything.

Well, I agree that they don't foresee everything, and that they certainly didn't expect Ajokli's interference. I still think they could realize Kellhus had a decent chance of surviving long enough to get into the Golden Room (by himself).


One last thought (too many). When Mimara checked her own belly with the Eye (still pregnant)... it blanked.
I think this means that Souls get into the world at the moment of birth. That explains why the No-God, sealing the world from incoming souls, kills not only babies conceived after Resumption, but also unborn babies concieved before Resumption. That explains why Mimara didn't see anything in her womb.
Sorry if this has been debated somewhere else. Or maybe there's nothing to debate and this was obvious?

Didn't that happened before she even gave birth to the first baby, though? Or am I misremembering?
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasûrimbor Kayûtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

Sausuna

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« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2017, 06:52:27 pm »
If you do have the book, there is nothing to say. I was speaking by memory.
A friend of mine borrowed it (and there is another waiting in line), so it will be a time until I can check it again.
EDIT: Anyway, when the horde flees, it means that Resumption took place, IMO. Second birth could have been just then.
The Horde fleeing could mean that. Or they could have been routed given the massive slaughter (over a million corpses there, mostly Scranc, as noted) with the Quya pushing them out of the Canal.

Again, the Resumption and stillbirth could be related. They could also be unrelated with a different sequence. Either seems quite likely to me.