Big question about the consult's intentions.

  • 95 Replies
  • 11029 Views

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

TLEILAXU

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Exalt-Smiter of Theories
  • Posts: 731
    • View Profile
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2017, 06:54:22 pm »
I wonder if the Mutilated might have been aware since the start that these supposed attempts on Kellhus' life were not likely to actually kill him. In fact, their goal may have been to get Kellhus to Golgotterath sooner to start Resumption. I don't think they originally planned on using anyone but Kellhus - Kelmomas was a last-minute change that happened to work. Of course, with the non-linear view of time and all that, Kelmomas had always been the No-God, but I believe the Mutilated just misinterpreted the Celmomian prophecy.
And, since Bakker mentioned in the AMA that putting Inrilatas in the Carapace would not have worked, it can't just be a matter of AnasŻrimbor blood. For all we know, if they had succeeded in inserting Kellhus it would not have worked either, same for KayŻtas or Serwa.


I don't agree about Mimara's child. Or, I misunderstood the scene when the sarcophagus floats down, disguised by Kellhus hologram, before the Ordeal. Everyone is in silence. A baby wails. Then "the second birth was mercifully quick". Unless you mean that the Resumption was iniciated but not completed... but we don't have any piece of information to confirm that conjecture either, do we?
EDIT: yeah, I was always remembering that passage form TJE (Aurang telling the thing called Somanduta to protect Mimara in order to follow false and true prophecies).
RE EDIT: Or was it in TWLW?

The cause of the second twin's stillbirth seems to be unclear, since, like you said, it seems to happen before Resumption. Then again, I can't fully discard it as a possibility, as the timeline of events involving the No-God has more to it than it seems (thinking of Werthead's theory of a time paradox resolved by the Judging Eye).
It's possible, of course, that the second twin was stillborn because women with the Judging Eye supposedly have stillborn children (though that does not explain why the first twin lived).
There is also the mundane explanation of a premature birth, combined with the effects of qirri in fetal development, lack of proper nutrition, etc. (I don't think this was the case but had to mention it).
I believe the passage you're referring to is in TWLW, yes.
I thought the Judging Eye was related to one particular unborn soul and according to this Mimara should've lost the ability after the twins' birth. I can't remember if she actually does lose it though.

FŽanor

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2017, 06:55:59 pm »
One last thought (too many). When Mimara checked her own belly with the Eye (still pregnant)... it blanked.
I think this means that Souls get into the world at the moment of birth. That explains why the No-God, sealing the world from incoming souls, kills not only babies conceived after Resumption, but also unborn babies concieved before Resumption. That explains why Mimara didn't see anything in her womb.
Sorry if this has been debated somewhere else. Or maybe there's nothing to debate and this was obvious?

Didn't that happened before she even gave birth to the first baby, though? Or am I misremembering?
Yes, still pregnant with both babies. Thatīs the reason of my reasoning.
I don't know why I feel so skinned alive.

FŽanor

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2017, 06:59:59 pm »
The Horde fleeing could mean that. Or they could have been routed given the massive slaughter (over a million corpses there, mostly Scranc, as noted) with the Quya pushing them out of the Canal.

Sranc routed? Really?
EDIT And in silence?
I don't know why I feel so skinned alive.

SmilerLoki

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 553
    • View Profile
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2017, 07:06:21 pm »
The Boding clearly begins after both births, not before.

FŽanor

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2017, 07:13:12 pm »
The Boding clearly begins after both births, not before.
Source, please?
I don't know why I feel so skinned alive.

Sausuna

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
    • View Profile
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2017, 07:18:32 pm »
The Horde fleeing could mean that. Or they could have been routed given the massive slaughter (over a million corpses there, mostly Scranc, as noted) with the Quya pushing them out of the Canal.

Sranc routed? Really?
EDIT And in silence?
Sranc can be routed, they were driven across the large of the Istyuli plains before being forced to fight at Dagliash. As far as the silence, relating to the Canal just being cleared and those outside running. It wasn't literally silent so much as the contract from before. At least that's how it read to me.

I assume SmilerLoki is referencing the fact that The Boding is not described until after the births. Which might be fair, given that apparently everyone around the world could feel it. It seems quite a significant horror. Not that I think that is conclusive proof otherwise either.

FŽanor

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2017, 07:25:13 pm »
The Horde fleeing could mean that. Or they could have been routed given the massive slaughter (over a million corpses there, mostly Scranc, as noted) with the Quya pushing them out of the Canal.

Sranc routed? Really?
EDIT And in silence?
Sranc can be routed, they were driven across the large of the Istyuli plains before being forced to fight at Dagliash. As far as the silence, relating to the Canal just being cleared and those outside running. It wasn't literally silent so much as the contract from before. At least that's how it read to me.

I assume SmilerLoki is referencing the fact that The Boding is not described until after the births. Which might be fair, given that apparently everyone around the world could feel it. It seems quite a significant horror. Not that I think that is conclusive proof otherwise either.
But in Golgotterath, defending the Ark, it seems impossible to me that Sranc flee, unless the No God is activating their swarm-brains, prepairing the choir to speak en masse.

I don't know why I feel so skinned alive.

Sausuna

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
    • View Profile
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2017, 07:35:07 pm »
The Horde fleeing could mean that. Or they could have been routed given the massive slaughter (over a million corpses there, mostly Scranc, as noted) with the Quya pushing them out of the Canal.

Sranc routed? Really?
EDIT And in silence?
Sranc can be routed, they were driven across the large of the Istyuli plains before being forced to fight at Dagliash. As far as the silence, relating to the Canal just being cleared and those outside running. It wasn't literally silent so much as the contract from before. At least that's how it read to me.

I assume SmilerLoki is referencing the fact that The Boding is not described until after the births. Which might be fair, given that apparently everyone around the world could feel it. It seems quite a significant horror. Not that I think that is conclusive proof otherwise either.
But in Golgotterath, defending the Ark, it seems impossible to me that Sranc flee, unless the No God is activating their swarm-brains, prepairing the choir to speak en masse.
Sranc can only really be corralled, kind of the reason they have Yoke Legions and why the No-God's control of them is ideal. They're a gibbering, nearly unthinking mass otherwise. I don't see why their retreat against massive slaughter is so unthinkable.

Walter

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • Posts: 171
    • View Profile
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2017, 07:35:48 pm »
I don't think the Hoard can be routed, it is too big to ever know that it is defeated.  I'd say that the No-God pulled the Hoard back for a sec while he did his Kellhus act.

FŽanor

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2017, 07:41:34 pm »
I don't think the Hoard can be routed, it is too big to ever know that it is defeated.  I'd say that the No-God pulled the Hoard back for a sec while he did his Kellhus act.
Yes, but I think it was the other way around. He did his Kellhus act to give time to the Horde to reset their swarm-brains.
I don't know why I feel so skinned alive.

FŽanor

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2017, 07:48:39 pm »
  I don't see why their retreat against massive slaughter is so unthinkable.
Why, because of their behavior in the TAE books. Kamikaze like. And I don't think they were about to be slaughtered. Sheer numbers would have prevailed, that's what Bakker was telling us again and again.
I don't know why I feel so skinned alive.

SmilerLoki

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 553
    • View Profile
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2017, 07:50:47 pm »
I assume SmilerLoki is referencing the fact that The Boding is not described until after the births. Which might be fair, given that apparently everyone around the world could feel it. It seems quite a significant horror. Not that I think that is conclusive proof otherwise either.
Indeed. It's kinda hard to give a quote, since it would require me to post a significant chunk of the book, which I don't consider proper. I also do agree it's not conclusive, just something to take into account.

There is also this answer from Bakker:
Yes. It's a holographic projection, simply meant to keep the Great Ordeal - and the Schoolmen in particular - pinned in place while the Oar comes rattles back to life.
It implies the No-God needed time to start operating at capacity, which should impact its abilities, the Death of Birth and Horde-controlling among them.

Sausuna

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
    • View Profile
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2017, 07:51:44 pm »
I don't think the Hoard can be routed, it is too big to ever know that it is defeated.  I'd say that the No-God pulled the Hoard back for a sec while he did his Kellhus act.
The Horde is like a swarm, it just takes enough retreating on the front to trigger a chain reaction. This is the very reason the original one continued to retreat, because those at the fore were driving the others, despite their massive numbers. Again, more than a million dead? That's pretty staggering.

FŽanor

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
« Reply #28 on: August 29, 2017, 07:56:48 pm »
It implies the No-God needed time to start operating at capacity, which should impact its abilities, the Death of Birth and Horde-controlling among them.
Why both? The boding does not depend on manouvering a million brains. It just happen because the No God exists. I think the Boding was on its way, while the horde was being reset.
I don't know why I feel so skinned alive.

SmilerLoki

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 553
    • View Profile
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2017, 07:59:41 pm »
Why both? The boding does not depend on manouvering a million brains. It just happen because the No God exists. I think the Boding was on its way, while the horde was being reset.
I mean, we don't know how did it work precisely, so I note this fact. Maybe the Boding is harder, maybe the Horde-controlling, maybe other things, maybe everything combined. It can go every way, there is no further evidence to support a particular theory.