Big question about the consult's intentions.

  • 82 Replies
  • 6573 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

TaoHorror

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 812
  • Blueberry Pskhe Sorcerer
    • View Profile
« Reply #45 on: August 30, 2017, 01:17:05 am »
Speaking of "intentions" ... we may be mistaken that the No-God will "behave" in a certain way. He/it does ask us what do we see, what is he ... sounds like Kel speaking to me. Like a child confused as to what costume he's wearing ( hey ma, how do I look? ). He may be able to modify the effects of the carapace and make independent decisions. The narration tells of it modifying him ( think it alludes to being painful modification ), but Kel may still yet be an independent agent and may surprise us with actions other than the mass murder of 174+ million people.

And Kellhus had something ( a voice in his head ) asking those same questions - interesting exposure to something that occurs in the future when you're dead. Kel "talking" to his dad from the future? Hmm ... I don't know ... could be Kellhus is "somewhere" where he can hear those questions in real time ( if saved, maybe in Heaven ... or maybe in Hell, the 4 Horned may have kept to Kellhus's "deals" - Kellhus could have foreseen his death, maybe not exactly how it would happen, but the arrival of the No-God doesn't necessarily spell the end of the path for the TTT ).
Remember to brush before bed

Fanor

  • *
  • Emwama
  • Posts: 19
    • View Profile
« Reply #46 on: August 30, 2017, 03:29:23 am »
Speaking of "intentions" ... we may be mistaken that the No-God will "behave" in a certain way. He/it does ask us what do we see, what is he ... sounds like Kel speaking to me. Like a child confused as to what costume he's wearing ( hey ma, how do I look? ). He may be able to modify the effects of the carapace and make independent decisions. The narration tells of it modifying him ( think it alludes to being painful modification ), but Kel may still yet be an independent agent and may surprise us with actions other than the mass murder of 174+ million people.

And Kellhus had something ( a voice in his head ) asking those same questions - interesting exposure to something that occurs in the future when you're dead. Kel "talking" to his dad from the future? Hmm ... I don't know ... could be Kellhus is "somewhere" where he can hear those questions in real time ( if saved, maybe in Heaven ... or maybe in Hell, the 4 Horned may have kept to Kellhus's "deals" - Kellhus could have foreseen his death, maybe not exactly how it would happen, but the arrival of the No-God doesn't necessarily spell the end of the path for the TTT ).
Hm... Since TDTCB I percieved the No God's questions as coming from a lost mind... someone utterly helpless, trapped within that object (now we know that there is a fusion subject-object), truly wanting to know who he was. It's like Nau Cayuti's mind was erased, brainwashed, since System Initiation, and acts like someone with amnesia. That implies a big dissociation between Mog Pharau's actions (including the Boding) and his utterances, though. I hope Scotty show us the whole thing in the NG series.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2017, 03:32:34 am by Fanor »
I don't know why I feel so skinned alive.

Frail

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 55
    • View Profile
« Reply #47 on: August 30, 2017, 03:50:08 am »
I dont really understand why little Kel would betray his father after giving himself over to him and slaying Sorweel. He begs and would prove anything for him. I don't buy the idea of him then turning over to the dark side so to speak especially without a POV chapter.

What I got from it was a skin spy basically says, "OK dont come out and distract Kellhus until AFTER he gets possessed by a literal God."

However if Kelmomas was being held hostage by a skin spy in a separate room, and then Kellhus/Ajokli pins all of the skin spies to the floor by their chorae (releasing Kelmomas), I would like a sentence or two at least of him being in awe or curiously drawn towards this event and then stumbling into his fathers presence.

Crtha

  • *
  • Moderator Extraordinaire
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Pendulous Fallacy
  • Posts: 772
  • Wizard IRL
    • View Profile
« Reply #48 on: August 30, 2017, 04:07:52 am »
Quote
See! the child gurgled, squealing for preposterous joy. I told you! I told you! They cant see me! The Gods! The Gods cant see me!

Kelmomas has clearly been interviewed by the Mutilated extensively and held back for this eventuality.

Fwiw, I interpret the 'oar' as the horde controlled by Mog also. They power and steer the Apocalypse as the no-god's tool and here are used to spank the Ordeal. There is no need for Bakker to invent yet another term for Tsuramah, but there is a need to differentiate the Horde from the Oar as a controlled swarm of sranc.

Also, the Boding is clearly a contraction of 'foreboding' referring to the directional existential dread projected from the Black Heaven.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

Frail

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 55
    • View Profile
« Reply #49 on: August 30, 2017, 04:32:51 am »
he wasnt interviewed extensively. he most likely couldn't even enter the ark until after the horn toppled, due to the massive battle. he also was probably carried up until the final moments before arriving near the throne room. like i said he was being held down by a skin spy until after kellhus/godtime which is where he hears his father and wants to exclaim his excitement

Crtha

  • *
  • Moderator Extraordinaire
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Pendulous Fallacy
  • Posts: 772
  • Wizard IRL
    • View Profile
« Reply #50 on: August 30, 2017, 05:10:46 am »
No, that is simply your opinion, which you are entitled to. I am also permitted to share mine. Thank you.
Retracing his bloody footprints, the Wizard limped on.

SmilerLoki

  • *
  • Great Name
  • ****
  • Posts: 470
    • View Profile
« Reply #51 on: August 30, 2017, 05:24:08 am »
Quote
See! the child gurgled, squealing for preposterous joy. I told you! I told you! They cant see me! The Gods! The Gods cant see me!

Kelmomas has clearly been interviewed by the Mutilated extensively and held back for this eventuality.
I do think this quote very likely indicates some sort of a previous interaction between Kelmomas and the Mutilated, which means they could've incorporated him in their plans.

Fwiw, I interpret the 'oar' as the horde controlled by Mog also. They power and steer the Apocalypse as the no-god's tool and here are used to spank the Ordeal. There is no need for Bakker to invent yet another term for Tsuramah, but there is a need to differentiate the Horde from the Oar as a controlled swarm of sranc.
The Horde of the No-God is generally referred to as the Horde of the No-God (actually, has another name ever been used?). The Oars, on the other hand, are alluded to as being parts of the Ark. For example, here:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", Chapter Fourteen, "Golgotterath"
The Horns reared impossible, commanding all, the two great Oars of the Ark goring the belly of the sky.

Also, the Boding is clearly a contraction of 'foreboding' referring to the directional existential dread projected from the Black Heaven.
Yes, of course. But this phenomenon is almost universally collated with the Death of Birth in the narrative.

Hiro

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 245
    • View Profile
« Reply #52 on: August 30, 2017, 10:49:43 am »

Fwiw, I interpret the 'oar' as the horde controlled by Mog also. They power and steer the Apocalypse as the no-god's tool and here are used to spank the Ordeal. There is no need for Bakker to invent yet another term for Tsuramah, but there is a need to differentiate the Horde from the Oar as a controlled swarm of sranc.
The Horde of the No-God is generally referred to as the Horde of the No-God (actually, has another name ever been used?). The Oars, on the other hand, are alluded to as being parts of the Ark. For example, here:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", Chapter Fourteen, "Golgotterath"
The Horns reared impossible, commanding all, the two great Oars of the Ark goring the belly of the sky.



Yes, the Oars referred to the Horns. Perhaps, probably, it took more time for the Carapace to power up, since one half of the Oars was missing. That seems like a partial explanation of the hologram, as well as the retreating Sranc.

Regarding the Sranc, I find the withdrawal, orderly as it is, a distinct signal of the coming of the No-God. The timing puts it right in the sequence of Resumption, it could also serve as a false signal to the Ordeal, keeping them close to the Ark while the hologram fools them, in order for the Ordeal to be annihilated afterwards.
Mystery denotes darkness

Sausuna

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
    • View Profile
« Reply #53 on: August 30, 2017, 12:43:43 pm »
Speaking of "intentions" ... we may be mistaken that the No-God will "behave" in a certain way. He/it does ask us what do we see, what is he ... sounds like Kel speaking to me. Like a child confused as to what costume he's wearing ( hey ma, how do I look? ). He may be able to modify the effects of the carapace and make independent decisions. The narration tells of it modifying him ( think it alludes to being painful modification ), but Kel may still yet be an independent agent and may surprise us with actions other than the mass murder of 174+ million people.

And Kellhus had something ( a voice in his head ) asking those same questions - interesting exposure to something that occurs in the future when you're dead. Kel "talking" to his dad from the future? Hmm ... I don't know ... could be Kellhus is "somewhere" where he can hear those questions in real time ( if saved, maybe in Heaven ... or maybe in Hell, the 4 Horned may have kept to Kellhus's "deals" - Kellhus could have foreseen his death, maybe not exactly how it would happen, but the arrival of the No-God doesn't necessarily spell the end of the path for the TTT ).
Eh, his actions so far (destroying the remains of the Great Ordeal and schools) haven't inspired much hope there. But the questions as the same as the ones seen in the prior dreams. To me that would imply that Kelmomas has very much lost his individual agency and is now the semi-witless killing extension of the Ark.


Honestly, in regards to whether or not the sequence of events (the retreat, the stillbirth) are meant to be signs of the No-God having awoken, I'd ultimately say it was intentionally vague. Given he doesn't give the 'big reveal' until the height of suspense as Mimara wanders up to the hologram.

Frail

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 55
    • View Profile
« Reply #54 on: August 30, 2017, 02:11:34 pm »
No, that is simply your opinion, which you are entitled to. I am also permitted to share mine. Thank you.
I still stick by mine because I'm not sure Kelmomas would backstab his father after changing his tune.
POV>Conjecture

Sausuna

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
    • View Profile
« Reply #55 on: August 30, 2017, 03:02:43 pm »
he wasnt interviewed extensively. he most likely couldn't even enter the ark until after the horn toppled, due to the massive battle. he also was probably carried up until the final moments before arriving near the throne room. like i said he was being held down by a skin spy until after kellhus/godtime which is where he hears his father and wants to exclaim his excitement
I don't think the battle would have been an issue. I don't remember when the scene occurs where the skin-spy takes him in (whether the battle was organizing or in full swing). However, we know from prior events (from what I recall of the Nau-Cayuti dream where Seswatha and he break into the Ark) that there are other subterranean entrances to the Ark. As well as the vast passages previously excavated to encircle the first Ordeal. He very well could have entered earlier on.

Now, given when he was likely brought in not long before the events that followed, I doubt there was time an extensive interview. But given his words 'I told you, I told you!', well, it seemed very likely the Mutilated at least somewhat interviewed him. I don't think the claim (POV>conjecture) holds much wait because you are interpreting events (whether or not he was able to get into the Ark earlier and the tone of his statements) based on context more than anything.

And really, even before, Kelmomas never had loyalty to his father. It was explicitly a ploy to avoid being killed (from what I recall). That he was trying to be useful. The scene where Kellhus admonishes him seems like a big enough turning point.
- Despairs his father is probably sealed.
- Escapes with his mother's help and flees, having given up hope.
- Finds a new mom look-a-like, wow, what luck!
- Finds a bunch of people (The Mutilated) that he would be able to identify as Dunyain.
- Seeing as he knows what the Consult is (pretty sure), could reason joining them is the best bet to beating father and securing his mother.


Sorry for not adding this in my prior post, didn't notice the side discussion outside whether or not Kelmomas has agency within the Carapace.

TaoHorror

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 812
  • Blueberry Pskhe Sorcerer
    • View Profile
« Reply #56 on: August 30, 2017, 03:03:44 pm »
There's more evidence Kel was "with" the Mutilated in some sense ( didn't just stumble into the room ), paraphrasing, Kel realized he replaced 1 tyrant for 4, when he was put into the carapace.
Remember to brush before bed

Frail

  • *
  • Suthenti
  • *
  • Posts: 55
    • View Profile
« Reply #57 on: August 30, 2017, 03:37:21 pm »
That would still mean they prepared Kelmomas to come out at the precise moment meant they knew a God would inhabit Kellhus. Seems too convenient of a moment.

Sausuna

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 160
    • View Profile
« Reply #58 on: August 30, 2017, 04:00:46 pm »
Thanks Tao, I forgot about that line. Added in the idea that he was betraying Kellhus.

That would still mean they prepared Kelmomas to come out at the precise moment meant they knew a God would inhabit Kellhus. Seems too convenient of a moment.
Well, there are a couple likely possibilities to me. But the most likely would be the Mutilated were already planning contingencies. I noted this before as the 'why they were willing to try and kill Kellhus before' thing. It seemed apparent they were willing to try other Anasurimbors for the sake of the prophecy. They had Kelmomas around ready to throw in if Kellhus refused.

The likely idea being he was released either to distract Kellhus in general or perhaps Kelmomas said 'hey, I have unerring grace, I might be able to help kill my dad' and they gave it a shot alongside their 100 chorae skinspies.

Duskweaver

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
    • View Profile
« Reply #59 on: August 30, 2017, 04:17:17 pm »
We know from the EG that Kellhus had been observed wandering around on Mengedda, swapping heads with his Decapitants, so it's quite possible the Mutilated had some inkling of his pact with Ajokli.

The Mutilated seemed entirely too keen to engage Kellhus in conversation. A superficial interpretation would be that they were behaving more like Bond villains than Dunyain, expositing for the benefit of the reader. Words are weapons to the Dunyain, though, which means they were gabbing on like that for a reason. Maybe they were keeping Kellhus occupied until Kelmomas was in position? Maybe that whole bit about wanting Kellhus to become the No-God was misdirection on their part?
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."