Perspective and answers to open questions

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Duskweaver

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« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2017, 02:25:59 pm »
There's also the issue that Kellhus (or Ajokli) instructs Malowebi not to look into the IF. If Malowebi is irrelevant to Kellhus' (or Ajokli's) plans at that point, why bother to ensure he remains untainted by the Goad?
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

TaoHorror

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« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2017, 12:46:01 am »
Exactly
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profgrape

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« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2017, 08:21:15 pm »
There's also the issue that Kellhus (or Ajokli) instructs Malowebi not to look into the IF. If Malowebi is irrelevant to Kellhus' (or Ajokli's) plans at that point, why bother to ensure he remains untainted by the Goad?
Good point.  You'd figure that Kellhus has the pick of the litter when it comes to Decapitants.  So the very fact that he chose Malowebi, let alone making sure he wasn't corrupted by the Goad, matters.

To me, it all points to the fact that Kellhus knew he'd fail.  The bit in TUC where he talks about how the very fact of the Gods' blindness means someday, somehow, the Consult wins and the NG walks.  That he didn't know how things would play out wouldn't stop him from having some kind of plan, right?


MSJ

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« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2017, 08:26:56 pm »
This is all fine and dandy. But, what will Kellhus do trapped in the head of Malowebi, laying on the floor of the Golden Room? Is the demon Malowebi, who was instructed to return to Kellhus when through with the Zeumi, is on his way back to his Master? How does he get into the GR? Or, will they (CONSULT) simply discard the salted remains of Kellhus? It can work if demon Malowebi makes it back to Kellhus, though.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

profgrape

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« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2017, 08:59:43 pm »
This is all fine and dandy. But, what will Kellhus do trapped in the head of Malowebi, laying on the floor of the Golden Room? Is the demon Malowebi, who was instructed to return to Kellhus when through with the Zeumi, is on his way back to his Master? How does he get into the GR? Or, will they (CONSULT) simply discard the salted remains of Kellhus? It can work if demon Malowebi makes it back to Kellhus, though.
To be clear, I don't think Kellhus is trapped in Malo's head.  Or at least, I didn't until you mentioned it... ;-)

All joking aside, "dead but not done" is more about Kellhus' plans surviving his death.  Not saying he had it all figured out.  But I think that several of his machinations (Akka/Mimara, for example), have yet to show their true purpose.

Sausuna

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« Reply #35 on: September 26, 2017, 12:32:43 pm »
This is all fine and dandy. But, what will Kellhus do trapped in the head of Malowebi, laying on the floor of the Golden Room? Is the demon Malowebi, who was instructed to return to Kellhus when through with the Zeumi, is on his way back to his Master? How does he get into the GR? Or, will they (CONSULT) simply discard the salted remains of Kellhus? It can work if demon Malowebi makes it back to Kellhus, though.
To be clear, I don't think Kellhus is trapped in Malo's head.  Or at least, I didn't until you mentioned it... ;-)

All joking aside, "dead but not done" is more about Kellhus' plans surviving his death.  Not saying he had it all figured out.  But I think that several of his machinations (Akka/Mimara, for example), have yet to show their true purpose.
I mean, this is Kellhus we're talking about here. He actually travelled to the hells and struck deals with a god. If anyone is going to be able to say 'death is just a setback', then it'd be him.

Madness

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« Reply #36 on: September 26, 2017, 04:15:18 pm »
There's also the issue that Kellhus (or Ajokli) instructs Malowebi not to look into the IF. If Malowebi is irrelevant to Kellhus' (or Ajokli's) plans at that point, why bother to ensure he remains untainted by the Goad?
Good point.  You'd figure that Kellhus has the pick of the litter when it comes to Decapitants.  So the very fact that he chose Malowebi, let alone making sure he wasn't corrupted by the Goad, matters.

As per FB, it seems like Kellhus was collecting Decapitants beyond the two on his girdle. And good call, boys, on Ajokli or Kellhus instructing Malowebi to not look at the Goad.

To be clear, I don't think Kellhus is trapped in Malo's head.  Or at least, I didn't until you mentioned it... ;-)

Lol, kind of aside since we're chatting but as I've said I think Kellhus is trapped in the other Decapitant.

I mean, this is Kellhus we're talking about here. He actually travelled to the hells and struck deals with a god. If anyone is going to be able to say 'death is just a setback', then it'd be him.

I'm clearly in the minority but again I think Ajokli, not Kellhus, had to strike "pacts with the Pit."
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Sausuna

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« Reply #37 on: September 26, 2017, 05:36:37 pm »
I'm clearly in the minority but again I think Ajokli, not Kellhus, had to strike "pacts with the Pit."
Eh, I think that's possible, but it doesn't fit for me on a few levels. The first being that a god like Ajokli wouldn't necessarily need to make pacts with hell being that he is a god. Though, that's obviously much more at question given we don't know the precise nature of the outside realms and those who rule them. But I would think he would have his own realm.

But that aside, his discussion of the pacts is followed closely by 'which is why they needed me, inverse prophet, etc.' Would make me think he at least was speaking as himself still.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #38 on: September 26, 2017, 08:12:35 pm »
Ajokli also says that the Inverse Fire is but a window into his house.

Madness

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« Reply #39 on: September 27, 2017, 03:27:30 pm »
Eh, I think that's possible, but it doesn't fit for me on a few levels. The first being that a god like Ajokli wouldn't necessarily need to make pacts with hell being that he is a god. Though, that's obviously much more at question given we don't know the precise nature of the outside realms and those who rule them. But I would think he would have his own realm.

Well, we're told through PON and TTT Glossary that Ajokli is not like the other Hundred - how, why, etc, we don't know. But it implies that he interacts with the world and Outside as distinct from the agency, behaviours, etc, expressed by the other Gods.

But that aside, his discussion of the pacts is followed closely by 'which is why they needed me, inverse prophet, etc.' Would make me think he at least was speaking as himself still.

Yeah, profgrape and I have debated and tried to reconcile the particulars a number of times. The only - admittedly weak - conjecture I can offer is that Ajokli-through-Kelllhus retains Kellhus' persona/faculties/memories, whatever?

Ajokli also says that the Inverse Fire is but a window into his house.

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H

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« Reply #40 on: September 27, 2017, 05:20:01 pm »
I'm clearly in the minority but again I think Ajokli, not Kellhus, had to strike "pacts with the Pit."

In this case, to what end?  Why would Ajokli need pacts in the place where he (presumably) wields maximal power?

I thought it would be Kellhus would "struck pacts" via the Daimos (a la the "head-on-a-pole" scenes in TGO).
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Sausuna

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« Reply #41 on: September 27, 2017, 05:41:13 pm »
Well, we're told through PON and TTT Glossary that Ajokli is not like the other Hundred - how, why, etc, we don't know. But it implies that he interacts with the world and Outside as distinct from the agency, behaviours, etc, expressed by the other Gods.
Sure, that was the main reason I give it a 'maybe'. We don't quite know the exact nature of Ajokli as of yet.

Quote
Yeah, profgrape and I have debated and tried to reconcile the particulars a number of times. The only - admittedly weak - conjecture I can offer is that Ajokli-through-Kelllhus retains Kellhus' persona/faculties/memories, whatever?
It can be either way, hard to say. To me I think it didn't kick over until close at the end of his talking. But there isn't a clear determining aspect of it.


@H - I would think it depends on the nature of Ajokli. As Madness denotes, he is described in a lot of ways, sometimes as a 'companion to the Gods' or something. It seems possible that he could have maybe been a soul turned ciphrang turned god. In which case, he'd have to deal.

MSJ

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« Reply #42 on: September 27, 2017, 08:24:05 pm »
I've got threads on Ajokli somewhere around here and many posts. I believed him very important to the story, for many of the reason giving above. The Cnauir became Ajokli is nice thematically. Mimara saw the Prince of Hate, One of Ajokli's monikers. I just don't really believe it.

Matter of fact, I've thought this for sometime, I just can't square it within the text. When Ajokli is described, it's as a trickster, companion to the Gods, one that will lie to you, cheat and steal to get what he wants. He's known to give his Narindar's the power they need, only to take it all away when they need it most.

Doesn't sound like Cnauir to me. A man who is bound by honor and such. A great warrior who seeks vengeance. But Kellhus? Oh yes. Ajokli and Kellhus share many, many traits. Look at how he won the Three-Seas and became Aspect-Emperor. He lied, cheated and stole his way into power. Hell he murdered his own flesh and blood. If we look at what comes after determines what comes before, well, Ajokli and Kellhus kinda fusing together makes plenty of sense. I just can't square it, as I said through the text. If Ajokli just doesn't understand that Kellhus and him are one entity now would be the only way.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

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« Reply #43 on: September 27, 2017, 08:30:48 pm »
Sorry for double-post, can't edit.

Also, the Head on a pole scene would explain why he is viewed as a companion to the Gods. Yes, I say that Ajokli being Kellhus is much more likely than Cnauir and even have some textual evidence it could be the case. Its just hard to square the last bit where he is looking for Kellhus and can't find him. Unless that is, they are one and the same and Ajokli can't comprehend how that is. Its why he can't find him.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Sausuna

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« Reply #44 on: September 27, 2017, 08:43:27 pm »
Sorry for double-post, can't edit.

Also, the Head on a pole scene would explain why he is viewed as a companion to the Gods. Yes, I say that Ajokli being Kellhus is much more likely than Cnauir and even have some textual evidence it could be the case. Its just hard to square the last bit where he is looking for Kellhus and can't find him. Unless that is, they are one and the same and Ajokli can't comprehend how that is. Its why he can't find him.
I was about to say, I have a hard time squaring either of them being Ajokli unless they would somehow both be him. His reputation has him being too tricky for me to think him just Cnauir and his appearance/possessing Cnauir and other titles make him seem too angry/emotional/greedy to be just Kellhus. But both? I could maybe see it then.

The main catch I have with Kellhus is still the weird temporal stuff as well. The fact that Kellhus seemingly encountered Ajokli prior to TUC, then was possessed in TUC, then Ajokli was banished, Kellhus died, then also become eternal Ajokli. Just seems strange than say Kelmomas who seemingly follows a more understandable temporal loop of always being the NoGod. This is less me arguing this as a roadblock, more just the fact that I hate time stuff in most settings.