Perspective and answers to open questions

  • 79 Replies
  • 15642 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2289
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2017, 08:44:32 pm »
Quote from:  Sausuna
@H - I would think it depends on the nature of Ajokli. As Madness denotes, he is described in a lot of ways, sometimes as a 'companion to the Gods' or something. It seems possible that he could have maybe been a soul turned ciphrang turned god. In which case, he'd have to deal.

Let me make it clear that Kellhus is Ajokli isn't something I'm 100% promoting. But, your quote above gives it even more credence. Kellhus struck deals with the pit via the Daimos, Head on the pole, companion to the Gods. He roamed hell and returned, again, companion to the Gods. As i said, they share many traits. And Madness's not about them fusing together in a sense, might be literally. It could again why we have trouble telling when one starts talking in the Golden Room. It could explain how Bakker says that as he neared the Golden Room he became more and more inhabited by Ajokli. Well, hell, he could be just became Ajokli.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2289
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2017, 08:52:21 pm »
@Sausuna, yep it's hard to square either and I definitely like that they could be both, your explanation about their traits makes sense. I'm with you though, it's very hard to square it within the text. But, clues giving to who Ajokli is, makes the theorizing of it, very enticing!
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TaoHorror

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 1091
  • Blueberry Psûkhe Sorcerer
    • View Profile
« Reply #47 on: September 28, 2017, 01:43:42 am »
The thought on the other decapitant is Kel, is the thinking that he arranged an escape path in case things got hairy ( which they did when he was surrounded by 100 chorae wielding Consult )? So when he was salted, he saved himself? Bakker says he's dead, count on it, so I think inhabiting the severed head would be a death thwarting move ... but the other head seems significant in the read, for sure. If not Kel, then who?

The whole Ajokoli thing should square in the next read - just too opaque at this point in the story to understand what exactly happened and who Ajokoli possessed, etc. My take is the possession is invited by the host and Cnair's "hate" equivalent to an invite. But I'm not putting any chips on anything at this point.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2017, 01:47:34 am by TaoHorror »
May your death be soon, slow and painful

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5252
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #48 on: September 29, 2017, 04:09:54 pm »
In this case, to what end?  Why would Ajokli need pacts in the place where he (presumably) wields maximal power?

What if Ajokli doesn't wield maximal power in the Hells, given his drive to effect the same on Earwa's plane? It's something I haven't teased out yet and has been difficult to do so because so few are considering this line of thought. Perhaps even if he is akin to Hel or Hades, more powerful Ciphrang than himself exist?

Also, H, you'll really enjoy the portion of that latest Stuff to Blow Your Mind regarding the Gods and their relation to the World.

It can be either way, hard to say. To me I think it didn't kick over until close at the end of his talking. But there isn't a clear determining aspect of it.

What tips me a bit is that Malowebi sees this same marring reflection over both Kellhus' head and the other Decapitant but only sees it on the other Decapitant shortly before Ajokli goes goes full Ghost-Rider God-Mode - he sees the marring earlier looking at Kellhus through the reflection of the Ark's surface - which suggests that Ajokli's dialogue extends further than his explicit reveal.

Sorry for double-post, can't edit.

Also, the Head on a pole scene would explain why he is viewed as a companion to the Gods. Yes, I say that Ajokli being Kellhus is much more likely than Cnauir and even have some textual evidence it could be the case. Its just hard to square the last bit where he is looking for Kellhus and can't find him. Unless that is, they are one and the same and Ajokli can't comprehend how that is. Its why he can't find him.
I was about to say, I have a hard time squaring either of them being Ajokli unless they would somehow both be him. His reputation has him being too tricky for me to think him just Cnauir and his appearance/possessing Cnauir and other titles make him seem too angry/emotional/greedy to be just Kellhus. But both? I could maybe see it then.

Circa. TGO Q&A Bakker did make comments about individuals like Cnaiur, or perhaps Kosoter, who become akin to walking Topos in life (though, I'd have to go digging for that comment). Kellhus is even moreso a Topos to Earwa for Ajokli than Cnaiur is - Kellhus (until the Mutilated-forthcoming, I suppose) was the true most-violent-of-all-men (or Proyas, poor bastard).

The thought on the other decapitant is Kel, is the thinking that he arranged an escape path in case things got hairy ( which they did when he was surrounded by 100 chorae wielding Consult )? So when he was salted, he saved himself? Bakker says he's dead, count on it, so I think inhabiting the severed head would be a death thwarting move ... but the other head seems significant in the read, for sure. If not Kel, then who?

profgrape had plans to make a thread about some of these considerations... profgrape ;)?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 04:11:50 pm by Madness »
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 401
    • View Profile
« Reply #49 on: September 29, 2017, 07:22:04 pm »
profgrape had plans to make a thread about some of these considerations... profgrape ;)?
profgrape still has plans... stay tuned...

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2780
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #50 on: October 02, 2017, 10:48:30 am »
What if Ajokli doesn't wield maximal power in the Hells, given his drive to effect the same on Earwa's plane? It's something I haven't teased out yet and has been difficult to do so because so few are considering this line of thought. Perhaps even if he is akin to Hel or Hades, more powerful Ciphrang than himself exist?

Also, H, you'll really enjoy the portion of that latest Stuff to Blow Your Mind regarding the Gods and their relation to the World.

It's possible that for some some reason, he is actually more powerful in Eärwa than he is in the Outside (which could partly explain why he does what he does at all, really).

I listened to about half that podcast, but the volume was so low, it was nearly impossible to hear what Bakker was saying most of the time on my phone.  I do have half an idea what they were talking about in the beginning, because years ago I did read Jaynes' Origins of Consciousness.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5252
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #51 on: October 03, 2017, 06:11:19 pm »
It's possible that for some some reason, he is actually more powerful in Eärwa than he is in the Outside (which could partly explain why he does what he does at all, really).

Hmm... making a thread :).
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Duskweaver

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 192
    • View Profile
« Reply #52 on: October 04, 2017, 02:54:49 pm »
If you have been so thoroughly conditioned that your soul moves entirely at the will of another, then is your soul not merely an extension of the soul of your manipulator? Are you not a part of him just as much as his own hand? If so, then Cnaiur is a limb of Kellhus, Kellhus a limb of Ajokli, and Ajokli a divine mantle taken up by Cnaiur-Conditioned-by-Kellhus. Then all three are the same soul, and Possession and Apotheosis are the same thing.

Ajokli is both the Trickster and the Prince of Hate. The Prince hates because he is the Trickster's mark. Both are part of the same story, just like Br'er Rabbit and Br'er Fox. The story is their shared soul. It's also a circuit of Watcher and Watched. The Prince hates the Trickster because he sees him for what he really is.
"Then I looked, and behold, a Whirlwind came out of the North..." - Ezekiel 1:4

"Two things that brand one a coward: using violence when it is not necessary; and shrinking from it when it is."

profgrape

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Great Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 401
    • View Profile
« Reply #53 on: October 04, 2017, 03:04:40 pm »
If you have been so thoroughly conditioned that your soul moves entirely at the will of another, then is your soul not merely an extension of the soul of your manipulator? Are you not a part of him just as much as his own hand? If so, then Cnaiur is a limb of Kellhus, Kellhus a limb of Ajokli, and Ajokli a divine mantle taken up by Cnaiur-Conditioned-by-Kellhus. Then all three are the same soul, and Possession and Apotheosis are the same thing.

Ajokli is both the Trickster and the Prince of Hate. The Prince hates because he is the Trickster's mark. Both are part of the same story, just like Br'er Rabbit and Br'er Fox. The story is their shared soul. It's also a circuit of Watcher and Watched. The Prince hates the Trickster because he sees him for what he really is.
This is awesome, Duskweaver.  Ajokli as Trickster/Mark (or Anansi/Leopard if you prefer) reminds me a lot of the duality with Kelmomas and Sarmamas. 

Madness

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Conversational Batman
  • Posts: 5252
  • Strength on the Journey - Journey Well
    • View Profile
    • The Second Apocalypse
« Reply #54 on: October 04, 2017, 05:41:05 pm »
If you have been so thoroughly conditioned that your soul moves entirely at the will of another, then is your soul not merely an extension of the soul of your manipulator? Are you not a part of him just as much as his own hand? If so, then Cnaiur is a limb of Kellhus, Kellhus a limb of Ajokli, and Ajokli a divine mantle taken up by Cnaiur-Conditioned-by-Kellhus. Then all three are the same soul, and Possession and Apotheosis are the same thing.

Ajokli is both the Trickster and the Prince of Hate. The Prince hates because he is the Trickster's mark. Both are part of the same story, just like Br'er Rabbit and Br'er Fox. The story is their shared soul. It's also a circuit of Watcher and Watched. The Prince hates the Trickster because he sees him for what he really is.

Lol, as I said, on fire, Duskweaver ;).

Though, in an other other thread, I do wish to claim again that it would seem that Ajokli has access to Kellhus and Cnaiur specifically in range of Golgotterath's Topos because they are winner and runner-up of the Most Damned Soul award.
The Existential Scream
Weaponizing the Warrior Pose - Declare War Inwardly
carnificibus: multus sanguis fluit
Die Better
The Theory-Killer

Frankly Bucked

  • *
  • Kcub Sicnarf
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • The Lordlady
  • Posts: 264
  • -IDIOT-
    • View Profile
« Reply #55 on: October 19, 2017, 07:38:00 pm »
Not sure if it's been brought up, but a further possible indicator that Kellhus = Ajokli is the fact that Ajokli is the "faithless husband" of Gierra, who could align with Esmenent.

I'm not fully in the Kellhus = Ajokli idea, but I think there's a kernel of something there. I personally am further inclined toward Ajokli being "Seswatha", but even that I'm not certain of by any means. I do think that Seswatha is one or more of the God-like entities we know of -- the Meta-God as mentioned in the Last Whelming, or the God of Gods.

Yellow

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
« Reply #56 on: October 20, 2017, 06:39:40 am »
I've always had this weird feeling that Onkis is Serwe, due to the description of Onkis from the TTT glossary, which reminds me of the way that men fetishize Serwe:

Quote
The Goddess of hope and aspiration... she is portrayed as a prophetess, not of the future, but of the motivations of Men...

and from this entry in the PoN wiki on Onkis:

Quote
Her idol depicts the severed head of a beautiful woman upon a copper tree.[3]

In the Irreüma in Sumna, her idol is described as:

“The idol worked in white marble, eyes closed with the sunken look of the dead. At first glance she appeared to be the severed head of a woman, beautiful yet vaguely common, mounted on a pole. Anything more than a glance, however, revealed the pole to be a miniature tree, like those cultivated by the ancient Norsirai, only worked in bronze. Branches poked through her parted lips and swept across her face—nature reborn through human lips. Other branches reached behind to break through her frozen hair.”[2]

Emphasis is mine. The description of being "beautiful yet vaguely common" completely describes Serwe in my mind, since she was a slave. Also, isn't the Copper Tree the symbol of the Kuniuric Anasurimbor (as well as Siol, of course), and wasn't Serwe sacrificed on the Circumfix (i.e. Kellhus' "tree"), and didn't the vision that comes to Kellhus while he's on the Circumfix involve the figure sitting beneath a tree? I'm not saying Serwe was the figure, just that Serwe, Kellhus, the figure, and the tree (and therefore Onkis?) are all linked.

Also, the link to the head on the pole is incredibly frustrating. I asked Bakker whether Onkis was the head on the pole in TGO, but he said it wasn't. It must, surely must have something to do with it though, right?

« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 06:41:25 am by Yellow »
You are the fist that beats us.

TLEILAXU

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Exalt-Smiter of Theories
  • Posts: 731
    • View Profile
« Reply #57 on: October 20, 2017, 07:29:33 am »
Unlikely, given that Serwë is burning in hell.

Yellow

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
« Reply #58 on: October 20, 2017, 08:13:01 am »
Says Kellhus. The later books stress that pre-meditation is the key to damnation. Serwe was naive and submissive... Maybe Kellhus lies.
You are the fist that beats us.

Frankly Bucked

  • *
  • Kcub Sicnarf
  • Kijneta
  • *****
  • The Lordlady
  • Posts: 264
  • -IDIOT-
    • View Profile
« Reply #59 on: October 30, 2017, 02:03:12 am »
Ah, the Cipher of Serwe...

Considering most of Earwa (which is full of naive, ignorant people) is Damned, the idea that Serwe is also -- unfairly -- Damned, does not strike me as an unrealistic possibility.

My thoughts? In the Circumfix, Serwe was the Jesus figure, and Kellhus was her Prophet, not the other way around as most presume.

Afterall, the one miracle in the series occurred there, and it was SERWE's --no Kellhus's -- heart that Kellhus inexplicably retrieved, the blood dripping from it literally cracking the ground.

Wonder whatever happened to that heart...