The Mutilated: A Census

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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2017, 05:00:26 pm »
Good point, could be he lied/exaggerated. Bakker has said he doesn't let the reader in on when entities lie in the story. Either contextually we have to determine what is and isn't, otherwise we're misled either purposely or not.
He describes it inwardly, recounting his memories of the siege for himself.

Sausuna

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« Reply #16 on: September 18, 2017, 07:40:49 pm »
What's the consensus on Shae living on in the Mutilated? I don't get why they'd say that Shae was "undone" if that was the case.

I'll put forth again, as I did in the 15+ pages of speculation on the topic, that Shauriatas managed - probably with the help of the Dunyain - to upload himself to the Ark because I think it would fit further thematic exploration by Bakker.
The thing is, like, are there any indications for this? I've been back and forth on this topic in my mind. On one hand I can see why people might say that Shae is in the Mutilated. Their cyclic speech, "the truth spoke with but one soul", the weak spirit of the Dūnyain etc. On the other hand the "undone" comment really throws me off. I had this thought earlier, that he might've become a Ciphrang, but that makes even less sense...
Yeah, I don't know. The only way I can square it is if perhaps The Mutilated were themselves deceived in regards to Shae's death. And while unlikely, I think it might be possible. Seeing as they might have no way to understand the magics that might hide him within their own bodies/spirits. It lines up so well otherwise. Not online weak spirits, but the comment that his prior vessels were ones 'devoid of passion'.

I need to reread that section (probably could do so a lot, given how much is revealed around there). But I guess what I would finder odder would be Kellhus not mentioning it. But perhaps if he did notice, he might view it as a plus. Since Shae might ultimately undo or subsume his new Dunyain rivals.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #17 on: September 18, 2017, 10:33:36 pm »
Every time I think Bakker is going all Herbert, he doesn't. So I'm guessing Shae ain't "loaded" into the arch ( though, that would be fricken cool, for sure ) as that is a Herbert move ( ref: WorShip series ). I guess he kinda went Herbert with The Battle of Caraskand ( the whole thing about being driven to near death making them formidable, that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger, is a common theme in Herbert's stuff - The Fremen in Dune, The Dosadi Experiment ). That and the "philosophical" tidbits before each chapter rounds out the most I've seen of Herbert's influence in PON ( probably a thread somewhere discussion PON influences ).

Anyways, the long and short is I was hoping to see some Shae in TUC. Not because I like him, but TFS was so intriguing. So here's hoping the dude ain't gone.
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Madness

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« Reply #18 on: September 20, 2017, 07:09:46 pm »
The Cants of Compulsion aren't going to save the Consult from being subsumed by the Mutilated.  The Consult is completely and utterly vulnerable to being subsumed by the Dunyain by its very nature of existence.  Once the captured Dunyain are shown the Inverse Fire and convert their formidable gifts are added to the cause.  From that point on its inevitable that they'll learn sorcery and form the dominate core of the Consult.  The only way to really avoid this is to capture them, interrogate them, and then kill them which requires arrogant half mad immortals to have 20-20 foresight and throw away the shiny new weapon that has fallen into their hands.

Honestly, I didn't like the idea that Shauriatas might have compelled the Mutilated at all at first but...

According to Koringhus, the Dunyain had no concept of sorcery the moment they witnessed it at Ishual. It was an immediate inversion of at least Koringhus' worldview, a prodigy among them. Given the lessons Aurang learned from not listening to Cnaiur and subsequently being bested by Kellhus in PON, much less whatever wariness the Consult might have gained from watching Kellhus' otherwise inexplicable rise, I'm fairly sure the Consult wouldn't take any chances with capturing Dunyain. Perhaps, for those Nonmen who might remember, there was an order to "Compel on sight."

Again though, I'm personally still dealing with the Mutilated sans thoughts of "possession" by Shauriatas.

Also I don't believe the Sranc numbers have anything to do with the Mutilated.  Their numbers are huge, but they are drawn from huge expanses of territory occupied by creatures that exist low down on the food chain.  The combined casualties is still probably in the single digit millions, which is scary and impressive, but not unreasonable given the vast swath of territory under consideration.

Agreed, I don't think the Mutilated would waste time producing more Sranc. But as mentioned, I think we safely attribute at least some of TAE's Tekne novelties to the Mutilated - the Sayothi Skin-Spy, perhaps the Ursranc, the Tekne-Nuke, etc.

2) They wanted to recruit them - I hadn't thought of this, but this has some merit, I think. Could be they wanted to see if they were damned likewise and enlist them to their common cause once the Dunyain were "educated" on hell. The war on Ishual was impressive, quite the campaign taking what appeared to me in the text massive losses ( a 1,000 sorcerers/magi/shriekers? ) and wanted some of that logos stuff on their side. Seems like you’all are leaning in this direction, appears I need to do a re-read.

Some of you'all, not this guy ;).

Perhaps that was the Consult's thought but as I said above I think that unlikely. Also, this raises more questions, given that the Mutilated sustained their mutilations somewhere. If torture than that's hardly a recruitment tactic as the Consult have the Inverse Fire. If capture during/after the Siege of Ishual, how did the Consult achieve that, if not Compulsion?

On a related note, the numbers of singers that assaulted Ishual seem very suspect to me. The way Koringhus describes it, there were far more sorcerers than we see at Golgotterath, when the Consult fends off Kellhus and his - huge - army.

It seems to me that that was the work of the Ishterebinth Quya, rather than the strictly Consult Erratics mulling around at Golgotterath.

The thing is, like, are there any indications for this? I've been back and forth on this topic in my mind. On one hand I can see why people might say that Shae is in the Mutilated. Their cyclic speech, "the truth spoke with but one soul", the weak spirit of the Dūnyain etc. On the other hand the "undone" comment really throws me off. I had this thought earlier, that he might've become a Ciphrang, but that makes even less sense...

Lol, I'd be the first to dismiss theories like Baby-Kellhus and Shauriatas-the-Mutilated. Too many moving parts, though Bakker has demonstrated proficiency in uniquely combining his sandbox, as per the Amiolas. The former has that "souls bounce" from Sarl and the latter has that "Sorcerous Compulsion" and "the Soul-Trapping-Sorceries."

For my bet, Bakker seem interested in contemporary commentary, in addition to the anachronistic, and critiquing the "Immortality-through-Upload-Salvation" seems like something he'd look to explore - especially in that the Earwan drive for immortality is almost as desperate as our own ;).

Yeah, I don't know. The only way I can square it is if perhaps The Mutilated were themselves deceived in regards to Shae's death. And while unlikely, I think it might be possible.

Or Shauriatas convinced them to help him upload his soul to the Ark. Or Compelled them to. Or Shauriatas used sorcery to make the Mutilated his new Ten-Wretch Sigil. Or any number of things ;).

Every time I think Bakker is going all Herbert, he doesn't. So I'm guessing Shae ain't "loaded" into the arch ( though, that would be fricken cool, for sure ) as that is a Herbert move ( ref: WorShip series ). I guess he kinda went Herbert with The Battle of Caraskand ( the whole thing about being driven to near death making them formidable, that which doesn't kill you makes you stronger, is a common theme in Herbert's stuff - The Fremen in Dune, The Dosadi Experiment ). That and the "philosophical" tidbits before each chapter rounds out the most I've seen of Herbert's influence in PON ( probably a thread somewhere discussion PON influences ).

Anyways, the long and short is I was hoping to see some Shae in TUC. Not because I like him, but TFS was so intriguing. So here's hoping the dude ain't gone.

Man after my own heart, Tao.

Sadly, Bakker was surprised by comparisons of Mimara's babies to Alia and Leto on the reddit AMA. I've long, long hoped that Mimara's child would be pre-born with the memories of Cu'jara Cinmoi and Nil'giccas :'(.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 07:11:59 pm by Madness »
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #19 on: September 20, 2017, 07:21:40 pm »
It seems to me that that was the work of the Ishterebinth Quya, rather than the strictly Consult Erratics mulling around at Golgotterath.
Working so closely with Sranc? At least the Intact at Ishterebinth weren't that openly in bed with the Vile, and it seems unlikely they would miss the Erratics among them departing en masse to rendezvous with a Consult army and then take part in a multiple-year siege.

Sausuna

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« Reply #20 on: September 20, 2017, 07:41:23 pm »
Yeah, I don't know. The only way I can square it is if perhaps The Mutilated were themselves deceived in regards to Shae's death. And while unlikely, I think it might be possible.

Or Shauriatas convinced them to help him upload his soul to the Ark. Or Compelled them to. Or Shauriatas used sorcery to make the Mutilated his new Ten-Wretch Sigil. Or any number of things ;).
Well, I think it would have to be something that involved their lack of cooperation, otherwise I see no reason for their saying he had to be 'dealt with' or whatever word they use. Implies eliminated or something.

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« Reply #21 on: September 20, 2017, 07:48:06 pm »
Well, I think it would have to be something that involved their lack of cooperation, otherwise I see no reason for their saying he had to be 'dealt with' or whatever word they use. Implies eliminated or something.

"Undone" is the word they used.  "He was undone."
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Sausuna

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« Reply #22 on: September 20, 2017, 08:20:26 pm »
Well, I think it would have to be something that involved their lack of cooperation, otherwise I see no reason for their saying he had to be 'dealt with' or whatever word they use. Implies eliminated or something.

"Undone" is the word they used.  "He was undone."
Much appreciated. Certainly they could have meant something else, but it really came off to me that he was dealt with in a non-amicable way. Though, they could have just meant 'neutralized', which wouldn't preclude him being within them if he can't do much beyond talk to them.

Yellow

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« Reply #23 on: September 22, 2017, 06:44:16 am »

Agreed, I don't think the Mutilated would waste time producing more Sranc. But as mentioned, I think we safely attribute at least some of TAE's Tekne novelties to the Mutilated - the Sayothi Skin-Spy, perhaps the Ursranc, the Tekne-Nuke, etc.


Can someone remind me who /what the Sayothi skin spy was, and why it may have something to do with the Mutilated? I don't remember it at all!
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #24 on: September 22, 2017, 12:46:02 pm »
Undone
1. past participle of undo.

Undo
1. unfasten, untie, or loosen (something).
2. cancel or reverse the effects or results of
3. cause the downfall or ruin of

Think that last definition is the objective one to use. He was slain or banished or his leadership came to an end. I initially took it to mean he was killed, but the common usage of the word in America is the failure of a leader, doesn't mean they were assassinated or killed in civil war; undone has a more political meaning than a violent one, like his/her plans were undone, or his/her position was undone. But if that's the case, where the hell is he ( no pun intended )? I guess he could be "in" someone/someones or a skinspy somewhere.

It's not the second definition, that would mean the TNG pursuit would be abandoned and they would be on another course - to my understanding, the Mutilated has taking up the ancient Consult cause, but vied for control of The Consult.

But this is Bakker we're talking about, for all we know he was untied and floated away like a balloon.
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Duskweaver

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« Reply #25 on: September 22, 2017, 02:31:44 pm »
I'm still not sure why everyone assumes the Mutilated were telling Kellhus the truth about Shauriatas, or indeed about anything else.

Like Kellhus' sword, Certainty is a weapon with two edges.
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Yellow

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« Reply #26 on: September 22, 2017, 02:43:25 pm »
Fairly sure the Dunyain aren't able to lie to each other convincingly.
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2017, 02:51:25 pm »
All true, anything can be anything - if they did lie to him, we didn't get a POV from Kel revealing as much. That said, misdirection/misunderstanding is the bread and butter of our scribe.
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Sausuna

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« Reply #28 on: September 22, 2017, 03:28:50 pm »
I'm still not sure why everyone assumes the Mutilated were telling Kellhus the truth about Shauriatas, or indeed about anything else.

Like Kellhus' sword, Certainty is a weapon with two edges.
I don't see a compelling reason for them to lie about that fact. Certainly, it is possible they lied. But nothing seems strong enough to me. And this brings up the topic (which someone made a thread on before) about why they were trying to kill Kellhus before or even why they sought to use the hologram to make an image of Shauriatas.

Either way, I wouldn't doubt their statement until there is enough reason to.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #29 on: September 22, 2017, 03:36:57 pm »
That's the conundrum. There's no reason for them to lie, but then Bakker sows questions about the fate of Shaeönanra. It's hard to imagine Shaeönanra duping the Mutilated when (some of) his faculties are supposed to be burning in Hell, so it seems we're left with either a willing possession or none at all.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 03:40:06 pm by tleilaxu »