Why Kelmomas?

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Monkhound

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« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2017, 02:59:12 pm »
Plausible.  However, he is "in there" somewhere?  I guess we can ask, as NG 1.0, who is asking "WHAT DO YOU SEE?"  Is it the apparatus itself?  I think probably would be Nau-Cayuti.

Just as circuitry in, say, a car has no idea what it is doing, I doubt if the soul that completes the Sarcophagus' function is aware of what it is doing.  Obviously, electrical circuits are always unaware, but a soul, shorn of the body and so of it's identity and perceptual capacity, ends up in nearly the same place.  The difference, of course, as the NG 1.0 demonstrates, is that the insertant retains (or gains, depending on how you want to approach it) the awareness of being unaware.  Not only that, but seemingly also retains the feeling, or perhaps knowledge, that something isn't quite right about this state.

In how far does this relate to the situation of both the Wathi doll (TWP) and Malowebi, I wonder? The situation is not exactly the same, of course, but there is the similarity that in all three cases the soul has been wrenched from the body and jammed into something else to fulfil a new purpose (to be turned into a tool).
Malowebi we get a clear view of what he can see and sense, but his purpose is still unclear.
In addition, the "making of a Wathi doll" process was explained in TGO, as far as I recall.
Any ideas?
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tleilaxu

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« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2017, 04:25:58 pm »
But it does in the sense that the Gods are blind to the actions of the Insertant.
It's quite the other way around, the way I see it. The Gods are blind to the No-God, and an Insertant is a part of it. What comes after determines what comes before.
But remember that Kel short circuited the WLWs. To me, Kel is the No-God in the sense that the flow of causality leads him to becoming the Insertant. I don't think the peculiarities of his personality will have any effect on the instrument itself.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2017, 04:42:04 pm »
But remember that Kel short circuited the WLWs. To me, Kel is the No-God in the sense that the flow of causality leads him to becoming the Insertant.
Yes, Kelmomas was always the No-God and so able to short-circuit the Outside entities. I don't really see how that differs from what I said earlier.

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« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2017, 05:18:01 pm »
This is what I'm disagreeing with. It's not just a piece of technology, it somehow influences the metaphysics of Earwa, actually remaking the world in a way that's described in philosophical, and not mechanical, terms. So, a case can be made, the No-God transcends its purely technological origin.

Is this point significant to you, or were you only talking about the No-God's machinery (the Sarcophagus) and booting sequence? If its the latter, please disregard everything written above, we are in agreement, I also view those things by themselves as just technology. The difference for me starts only when the System is operating. It seems to me that it creates some sort of new entity or principle, something more than the sum of its parts.

Indeed, I wasn't really being as succinct as I should have been.  My point is saying that it is a piece of technology is mainly to say that it is a tool, not a personality.  I don't think it has any sort of "personality" or "identity" only function and functions.  The fact that the function exerts some kind of metaphysical "influence" and a seeming "entity" is merely an aspect of the technology, but also probably part and parcel of it's overall purpose.

I suppose this is really just splitting hairs though.  In reality, as we learn in TUC, the Inchoroi are really just machines as well.  Living machines, but just living tools.  I don't think the No-God is all that different than the Inchoroi (or Sranc, or Bashrags, for that matter) in being a created thing that exists to exact a (probably single) purpose.

In how far does this relate to the situation of both the Wathi doll (TWP) and Malowebi, I wonder? The situation is not exactly the same, of course, but there is the similarity that in all three cases the soul has been wrenched from the body and jammed into something else to fulfil a new purpose (to be turned into a tool).
Malowebi we get a clear view of what he can see and sense, but his purpose is still unclear.
In addition, the "making of a Wathi doll" process was explained in TGO, as far as I recall.
Any ideas?

I think they must, almost certainly, be somewhat related.  The biggest difference is probably that the Sarcophagus is a Tekne way to do it, while the others are sorcerous.  But I don't think the Sarcophagus allows the Insertant any degree of control, or even real awareness, that soul simply allows the completion of the circuitry that empowers it.  That any awareness remains is probably a side-effect, rather than a purposeful function.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2017, 05:25:35 pm »
In reality, as we learn in TUC, the Inchoroi are really just machines as well.  Living machines, but just living tools.
Interesting. But that can then be said about everyone in the series. How does the concept of soul (discussed in the books at length) fit into it, what is your opinion?

TaoHorror

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« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2017, 05:32:18 pm »
Well, perhaps I'm a simpleton, but I like to think about these things in terms of what would be cool and not necessarily perfectly explained. I think "Kel" asking "us" what do we see, what am I - he's in there and at least somewhat retains his identity if not completely still "whole". The coolest thing about all of this is the horror. The Wathi doll, Mel POV as a severed head from a belt swaying back and forth and then Kel ( imprisoned? ) in the carapace - wicked cool horror going on here! It would really be something to see Kel "learn" his role, conscious of what he is now, fulfilling all of those moments he "dreamed" of murdering millions before he arrived in Golgotterath ( can't remember exactly, but think I remember him saying things like killing everyone to be with his mother - cool foreshadow of his future ). If TNG is simply a machine with Kel "changed" beyond his previous conscious self, that would be easier to write, but not as interesting - just another killing machine story line seen in so many sci-fi works. But to read about his torment, the horror, what he can and cannot control - that would be really wild to read. And aberrations like avoiding killing his mother, or even it's his reason to trek across Earwa was really just to find her ( all the while rapidly reducing the living soul count ). The in's and out's of the carapace may never be neatly explained to us - but it may simply not matter to the greater story. TNG has the odor of being Bakker's God Emperor ( Dune ) attempt, very challenging writing for him. Will be so cool to see him pull it off.
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Madness

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« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2017, 06:29:41 pm »
Plausible.  However, he is "in there" somewhere?  I guess we can ask, as NG 1.0, who is asking "WHAT DO YOU SEE?"  Is it the apparatus itself?  I think probably would be Nau-Cayuti.

... The difference, of course, as the NG 1.0 demonstrates, is that the insertant retains (or gains, depending on how you want to approach it) the awareness of being unaware.  Not only that, but seemingly also retains the feeling, or perhaps knowledge, that something isn't quite right about this state.

So, I don't think the No-God 2.0 will have the external character of Kel, in the same way that I don't think the No-God 1.0 had the character of Nau.  However, somewhere in there, physically or metaphysically, their souls are (were) present.  I don't know if this means the No-God could be metaphysically undone, but I guess it is possible (i.e. Mimara answering it's question).

Hmm... I thought for sure we had a thread around here cataloguing the No-God's questions. As far as I recall, they seem rather like the questions any "soul" might ask striped of individual features. I'd hazard that any soul/neurophysiology that completes the circuit would/will ask the same questions.

But it does in the sense that the Gods are blind to the actions of the Insertant.

Since finishing I've been wondering why Nau-Cayuti rather than why Kelmomas, seeing as the former was supposedly "beloved by the Gods" (though, I suppose he could have become notorious for his actions, culturally digested through the Kunniat, precisely because no Gods/god-entangled individuals throughout history could sense him...).

I don't think we are actually disagreeing though.

Lol, I don't think any of us are except on particulars. Timey-wimey backwards causality just makes it difficult to discuss clearly ;).

My point though was that I don't think Kel has ceased to exist and that might be significant.

Makes me wonder what "body" exactly was recovered at Mengedda?

I'm in the opposite camp on this particular, though, I don't think Kelmomas will prove to be significant apart from the properties of his soul/neurophysiology which allowed for the No-God to boot up again.

The No-God, as I speculated years and years ago, is just a piece of technology, no different than the Heron Spear, it has no personality, regardless of who is in the Sarcophagus.
This is what I'm disagreeing with. It's not just a piece of technology, it somehow influences the metaphysics of Earwa, actually remaking the world in a way that's described in philosophical, and not mechanical, terms. So, a case can be made, the No-God transcends its purely technological origin.

Is this point significant to you, or were you only talking about the No-God's machinery (the Sarcophagus) and booting sequence? If its the latter, please disregard everything written above, we are in agreement, I also view those things by themselves as just technology. The difference for me starts only when the System is operating. It seems to me that it creates some sort of new entity or principle, something more than the sum of its parts.

Whether you're agreeing on the latter, SmilerLoki, I do think teasing the details of the former is an interesting project in and of itself.

In how far does this relate to the situation of both the Wathi doll (TWP) and Malowebi, I wonder? The situation is not exactly the same, of course, but there is the similarity that in all three cases the soul has been wrenched from the body and jammed into something else to fulfil a new purpose (to be turned into a tool).
Malowebi we get a clear view of what he can see and sense, but his purpose is still unclear.
In addition, the "making of a Wathi doll" process was explained in TGO, as far as I recall.
Any ideas?

The Wathi Doll is a reason why we had threads distinguishing Sorcerous Artifacts from Weapons of Animata.

And it doesn't seem to me that the No-God has to function as the Daimotic Heads or the Wathi Doll, as it might be that Kelmomas/Nau-Cayuti's neurophysiology simply correctly joined the plus and minus signs in the No-God's battery slot (though this would force me to flip-flop on the thought that first No-God had Chorae to protect against sorcery rather than trapping the soul therein as I've previously argued).

But remember that Kel short circuited the WLWs. To me, Kel is the No-God in the sense that the flow of causality leads him to becoming the Insertant. I don't think the peculiarities of his personality will have any effect on the instrument itself.

I actually think that you're agreeing but on my reading it seemed to me that Kelmomas/Samarmus' Oscillating-Soul was the key.

Which forces me back towards Monkhound's thought that the No-God IS similar to the Weapons of Animata...

I think they must, almost certainly, be somewhat related.  The biggest difference is probably that the Sarcophagus is a Tekne way to do it, while the others are sorcerous.  But I don't think the Sarcophagus allows the Insertant any degree of control, or even real awareness, that soul simply allows the completion of the circuitry that empowers it.  That any awareness remains is probably a side-effect, rather than a purposeful function.

Lol, these posts are making me flop like a beached fish on my thought that the original Carapace had Chorae to trap the soul of the Insertant :o!
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H

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« Reply #22 on: September 15, 2017, 11:38:58 am »
Plausible.  However, he is "in there" somewhere?  I guess we can ask, as NG 1.0, who is asking "WHAT DO YOU SEE?"  Is it the apparatus itself?  I think probably would be Nau-Cayuti.

... The difference, of course, as the NG 1.0 demonstrates, is that the insertant retains (or gains, depending on how you want to approach it) the awareness of being unaware.  Not only that, but seemingly also retains the feeling, or perhaps knowledge, that something isn't quite right about this state.

So, I don't think the No-God 2.0 will have the external character of Kel, in the same way that I don't think the No-God 1.0 had the character of Nau.  However, somewhere in there, physically or metaphysically, their souls are (were) present.  I don't know if this means the No-God could be metaphysically undone, but I guess it is possible (i.e. Mimara answering it's question).

Hmm... I thought for sure we had a thread around here cataloguing the No-God's questions. As far as I recall, they seem rather like the questions any "soul" might ask striped of individual features. I'd hazard that any soul/neurophysiology that completes the circuit would/will ask the same questions.

Right, I think what we surmise, based off what little we information we have, is that the inserent is "in there" somewhere, but not in the sense of delivering a personality or character.  In other words, the behavior of the No-God itself, the actions and functions are not influenced by the insertent.

I think they must, almost certainly, be somewhat related.  The biggest difference is probably that the Sarcophagus is a Tekne way to do it, while the others are sorcerous.  But I don't think the Sarcophagus allows the Insertant any degree of control, or even real awareness, that soul simply allows the completion of the circuitry that empowers it.  That any awareness remains is probably a side-effect, rather than a purposeful function.

Lol, these posts are making me flop like a beached fish on my thought that the original Carapace had Chorae to trap the soul of the Insertant :o!

I think it is less and less probable that the Chorae were functional parts of the Sarcophagus, in the sense that they were needed to make it run, although it is plausible that the way in which Shae managed to "boot" the No-God was sorcerous, rather than Tekne, and so the Chorae were needed in that case.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 12:36:35 pm by H »
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Sausuna

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« Reply #23 on: September 15, 2017, 12:23:53 pm »
I keep seeing theories towards chorae being useful towards the Carapace and I just don't get it. Still seems like they very much would just act as a practical defense.

H

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« Reply #24 on: September 15, 2017, 12:44:42 pm »
I keep seeing theories towards chorae being useful towards the Carapace and I just don't get it. Still seems like they very much would just act as a practical defense.

Well, I agree that the practical outlook supports that.  However, not knowing how Shae booted up the No-God means there could be more to it.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2017, 11:33:52 pm »
I keep seeing theories towards chorae being useful towards the Carapace and I just don't get it. Still seems like they very much would just act as a practical defense.

Agreed. Especially as someone suggested, the whirlwind has about 90% of the chorale. So seems like sorcery won't do the trick of defeating TNG.
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« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2017, 05:37:43 pm »
I think it is less and less probable that the Chorae were functional parts of the Sarcophagus, in the sense that they were needed to make it run, although it is plausible that the way in which Shae managed to "boot" the No-God was sorcerous, rather than Tekne, and so the Chorae were needed in that case.

Yeah, the plausible is what I've been convinced of but now I'm starting to doubt my conclusions.

I keep seeing theories towards chorae being useful towards the Carapace and I just don't get it. Still seems like they very much would just act as a practical defense.

It was the result of years of speculation regarding the fact that the Consult were only able to manifest the No-God after Shaeonanra joined the squad, therefore readers have long assumed he produced a sorcerous solution to bandaid the Inchoroi's failing understanding of the Tekne (or it's failing understanding of how to interact with Ark's replicators as we now understand it ;)).

I keep seeing theories towards chorae being useful towards the Carapace and I just don't get it. Still seems like they very much would just act as a practical defense.

Agreed. Especially as someone suggested, the whirlwind has about 90% of the chorale. So seems like sorcery won't do the trick of defeating TNG.

+1
« Last Edit: September 20, 2017, 05:42:15 pm by Madness »
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Sausuna

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« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2017, 05:59:55 pm »
I keep seeing theories towards chorae being useful towards the Carapace and I just don't get it. Still seems like they very much would just act as a practical defense.

It was the result of years of speculation regarding the fact that the Consult were only able to manifest the No-God after Shaeonanra joined the squad, therefore readers have long assumed he produced a sorcerous solution to bandaid the Inchoroi's failing understanding of the Tekne (or it's failing understanding of how to interact with Ark's replicators as we now understand it ;)).
I mean, with that context, I think it makes some sense. But given what we know now, that they just threw thousands (was it tens of thousands) into the Carapace before they got lucky, idk. That was some time after he joined.

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« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2017, 06:36:33 pm »
I keep seeing theories towards chorae being useful towards the Carapace and I just don't get it. Still seems like they very much would just act as a practical defense.

It was the result of years of speculation regarding the fact that the Consult were only able to manifest the No-God after Shaeonanra joined the squad, therefore readers have long assumed he produced a sorcerous solution to bandaid the Inchoroi's failing understanding of the Tekne (or it's failing understanding of how to interact with Ark's replicators as we now understand it ;)).
I mean, with that context, I think it makes some sense. But given what we know now, that they just threw thousands (was it tens of thousands) into the Carapace before they got lucky, idk. That was some time after he joined.

Absolutely, given what we know now, sure ;). H has been talking about these books longer than I have and I was only on Three-Seas after TTT came out and it was already dying.

That theorizing comes from long before WLW/TGO Dreams.
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