[TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang

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TaoHorror

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« on: September 14, 2017, 02:31:13 pm »
TUC Spoiler! DO NOT READ FURTHER IF YOU'VE NOT COMPLETED TUC OR YOU WILL BE DESTROYED

Forgive me if simply a reread would answer my question, but I like posting here so ...

I remember Met looking up to see 3 Ciphrang coming down on him. My memory is unclear what happened with their efforts after that. Met shows up in the Golden Room later to be strangled/hung by Kel - but don't recollect his interaction with the Ciphrang. I thought that was such a cool scene - I was like, "Yes! Kick that arrogant ass's ass!" ... but fizzled out? 3 Ciphrang seems like they could do massive damage to the scranc and bashrag, maybe even take out that dragon.

[EDIT Madness: Subject title.]
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 02:42:57 pm by Madness »
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JerakoKayne

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« Reply #1 on: September 14, 2017, 03:16:45 pm »
The ciphrang were summoned into a topos. They're as close to hell as the world can get, and so couldn't be fully controlled by the sorcerers who summoned them. Demons are not terribly inclined to just wreak wanton havoc once they're here, because Reality is such a painful experience for them. Their interests tend to be more like revenge on the one who dared bind them in this way, and then gtfo.

Since they were in a topos (or at least a particularly strong one) their will to do so was much stronger than the Daimos that summoned them. So the Daimotic sorcerers are basically ciphrang snacks in the Outside now.

[EDIT Madness: No spoiler tags necessary.]
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 04:44:09 pm by Madness »

Madness

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« Reply #2 on: September 14, 2017, 04:43:20 pm »
Tao's mistake but you definitely don't have to be spoiler tagging your posts in this subforum anymore. Nor even tagging the subject title as I did necessarily (I only edited because Tao didn't need the [ spoiler ][ /spoiler ] in his subject title).

To your post, Tao, I think that'd have been an awesome fight but the Ciphrang are directed at the High Cwol at the top of the Oblitus going for the Intrinsic Gate, as far as I read it.

Mekeritrig assumptively did have to make his way up the Oblitus and back to the Golden Room, though.
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Sausuna

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« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2017, 05:39:04 pm »
Just took it as they went towards the masses of Scranc and Met peaced out. And assumedly once the one (forget the name) was close enough to the torpos that he could take his master (forget his name) straight to hell, the others were probably unbound. Some assumedly might have been defeated as well since the description does indicate they can be wounded/defeated by mortal means. Not sure if there was more than one Scarlet Spires sorcerer controlling them or just the one blind dude.

Wolfdrop

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« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2017, 06:04:34 pm »
As far as I'm aware Kakaliol escaped and claimed Iyokus' soul.

The others I think did some pretty heavy damage to the defences and we're destroyed in the process. It just happened off screen. Hagazioz left a huge breach with his death throes.

SuJuroit

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« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2017, 06:11:01 pm »
Quote
The others I think did some pretty heavy damage to the defences and we're destroyed in the process. It just happened off screen.

Yeah.  With the exception of Kakaliol, all the other ciphrang we've seen summoned into the Inward and fight on camera were, at best, a match for a single skilled Gnostic sorcerer.  Achamian beats one down and battles a second to, essentially, a draw (although it probably could have killed him if that's what Iyokus really wanted).  Maybe the Daimotic sorcerers upped their game after Kellhus became Aspect Emperor?  We certainly never saw anything as powerful as Kakaliol in the first trilogy.

Wolfdrop

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« Reply #6 on: September 14, 2017, 07:06:42 pm »
Seems like a bunch of Potents they unleashed. Apart from Zioz, I think the rest we've seen were debiles.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 03:45:57 pm by Wolfdrop »

Rots

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« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2017, 03:28:33 am »
This might be a total nerdanel but do we have any sort of mechanistic understanding of the daimos? Cnauir is most certainly in the Outside as one ridiculously powerful Ciphrang, if Serwa is dead she will be one also, and what about Kellhus? He seems to have disappeared but since hes described as being a hunger if he is in the Outside somewhere hes a ciphrang. If there are any daimotic sorcerers still wandering the land and some dots get connected i wonder if there is a way to summon any of the new ciphrang?

Again, to my reading there is no real understanding of the metaphysics of the daimos and how the demons can be yoked and controlled but i could certainly be wrong..Anywho, just a thought that would be pretty interesting to see played out.

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2017, 07:07:52 am »
There's a mention of Iyokus's Daimotic confrers, which makes sense because of course there is more than one sorcerer controlling all those Ciphrang.  They do hit the walls before the defensive wards are wrecked by the Chorae barrage and the Erratics are killed, so while it seems pretty clear they inflict massive damage on the Sranc and Bashrag ranks, they're being subject to a lot of punishment as well.  The topos doesn't seem to matter until they get too close to the Ark itself because it's only at the High Cwol do we see a Ciphrang realize that there's a door home nearby.  As for the quality of the demons, this is an art that the Aspect Emperor has learned, applied his genius too, and probably promoted and this is the time to go all out. 

Sausuna

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« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2017, 12:41:01 pm »
This might be a total nerdanel but do we have any sort of mechanistic understanding of the daimos? Cnauir is most certainly in the Outside as one ridiculously powerful Ciphrang, if Serwa is dead she will be one also, and what about Kellhus? He seems to have disappeared but since hes described as being a hunger if he is in the Outside somewhere hes a ciphrang. If there are any daimotic sorcerers still wandering the land and some dots get connected i wonder if there is a way to summon any of the new ciphrang?

Again, to my reading there is no real understanding of the metaphysics of the daimos and how the demons can be yoked and controlled but i could certainly be wrong..Anywho, just a thought that would be pretty interesting to see played out.
The Daimos is a very mysterious art compared to things like the Anagnosis and Gnosis. It seemingly allows the summoning and enslavement of demons, as well as allowing one to walk the Outside (via the Inversions, said to be the most feared disciplines of the Daimos).

I'm not sure Serwa would be one. I only vaguely remember how damned she looks when Mimara sees her, but don't recall her being called a ciphrang? Either way, I think Bakker's language makes it sound like her living is a strong possibility. As for Kellhus, theories abound, and I doubt we'll know whatsoever until the next books. I personally think Oblivion, partly merged with Ajokli, or used soul trapping magic on himself.

The number of Daimos users has to be extremely, extremely, extremely thin at this point. We already know the practice was outlawed by The Thousand Temples and most schools. The Scarlet Spires are the only ones we know who put real effort into it and they just got super savaged like everyone else. Not sure who else would possibly be using it, especially given the seem super damnation associated with it. As for the metaphysics, I think the glossary entries will help explain more.


Quote
Daimos—Also known as noömancy. The sorcery of summoning and enslaving agencies from the Outside. Daimotic Cants involve exploitation of the extensionless nature of the soul, the fact that all souls occupy the identical space, one orthogonal to the space of Bios, yet still belonging to the space of speech. For both political and pragmatic reasons, many Schools forbid their utterance, condemning the Daimos as irresponsible, if not reprehensible. The Tusk condemns the practice as wicked, and lists three different ways to execute its practioners. Some esoteric scholars claim that Daimotic sorcerers condemn themselves to eternal torment at the hands of their erstwhile slaves when they die. But then all sorcerers arrive where monsters have come before them.

Inversions—Daimotic Cants of Dispossession, or more generally, sorcery allowing the souls of the living to wander the ways of the dead. Outlawed by the Thousand Temples, eschewed by the Mandate, Inversions are the most feared discipline of the Daimos, especially within the Scarlet Spires.

MSJ

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« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2017, 01:03:50 pm »
If we take Bakker at his word (which I am loath to do.), Kellhus is dead but not done. So he is a diamotic sorcerer. If his soul is in the other decapitant, he could still use the Diamos presumably. Don't need anyone else to do the work for him.
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Cynical Cat

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« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2017, 10:24:48 am »
It's important to keep clear that the Daimos isn't a kind of sorcery like Anagogic or Gnostic, it's an application of Sorcery, like the Cants of Compulsion or War-Cants.  It's rarity is in part due to the fact that to work the Daimos is to embrace your own damnation, which is something most sorcerers are loath to do and why the far reaching and daring Scarlet Spires are the ones to developed it.  Kellhus has then taken their work and pushed it ahead armed with his extraordinary intellect and the Metagnosis.

Sausuna

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« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2017, 12:39:00 pm »
It's important to keep clear that the Daimos isn't a kind of sorcery like Anagogic or Gnostic, it's an application of Sorcery, like the Cants of Compulsion or War-Cants.  It's rarity is in part due to the fact that to work the Daimos is to embrace your own damnation, which is something most sorcerers are loath to do and why the far reaching and daring Scarlet Spires are the ones to developed it.  Kellhus has then taken their work and pushed it ahead armed with his extraordinary intellect and the Metagnosis.
Could one not consider it a kind of sorcery like those two? Just based on how the glossary describes the magics.
Anagogis - A branch of sorcery.
Gnosis - The branch of sorcery once practiced by the Gnostic Schools of the Ancient North.
Aporos - Described as a lost branch of sorcery.
Psûkhe - The arcane practice of the Cishaurim, much like sorcery, but cruder in its exercise.
Daimos - The sorcery of summoning and enslaving agencies of the Outside. (And also, apparently, visiting it, per Inversions.)

If anything seems not a branch itself, I'd think it is Metagnosis, which is described as a complication of the Gnosis rather than a different practice. The Inversions are even outlined as 'Daimotic Cants'. It even runs on a unique metaphysical principle. The Psûkhe uses passion, the Aporos is paradoxical (if I remember correctly Bakker's comments), the Anagogis is analogies, the Gnosis is abstractions, and the Daimos is to abuse the fact of souls all inhabiting one space with speech taking control of that (The Outside) right next to the physical world.

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2017, 07:30:31 pm »
That's not how it works.  The Gnosis, Anagogic Sorcery, and the Psukhe are different mechanisms of enacting sorcery.  The Metagnosis is an application of the Gnosis using two inutterals instead of one, thus having three reference points to buttress the meaning and precision of the Cants, meaning they are more powerful and a wider array of possible acts because of the existence of the third reference point.

The Daimos is the practice of applying that sorcery to the Outside and its inhabitants.  Just like the Cants of Compulsion or Wards are worked differently when they are Abstractions rather than Analogies, but both produce similar effects.  The Cants of Compulsion also work on a unique metaphysical principle and make a hash of free will but they are still parts of their respected branches. The Daimos is the same, a type of applied sorcery not separate type of sorcery itself.  Since it deals with the Outside and damnation, its a branch most Schools don't even try to develop but the Scarlet Spires didn't let that stop them.  That's why the Scarlet Spires could develop it, because it is possible to develop using Anagogic Sorcery, and Kellhus is able to adapt that knowledge to the Gnosis.

There's a post somewhere in Three Seas where Bakker discusses it.

Sausuna

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« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2017, 07:50:15 pm »
That's not how it works.  The Gnosis, Anagogic Sorcery, and the Psukhe are different mechanisms of enacting sorcery.  The Metagnosis is an application of the Gnosis using two inutterals instead of one, thus having three reference points to buttress the meaning and precision of the Cants, meaning they are more powerful and a wider array of possible acts because of the existence of the third reference point.
This part is correct, yes, and basically what I think I said.

Quote
The Daimos is the practice of applying that sorcery to the Outside and its inhabitants.  Just like the Cants of Compulsion or Wards are worked differently when they are Abstractions rather than Analogies, but both produce similar effects.  The Cants of Compulsion also work on a unique metaphysical principle and make a hash of free will but they are still parts of their respected branches. The Daimos is the same, a type of applied sorcery not separate type of sorcery itself.  Since it deals with the Outside and damnation, its a branch most Schools don't even try to develop but the Scarlet Spires didn't let that stop them.  That's why the Scarlet Spires could develop it, because it is possible to develop using Anagogic Sorcery, and Kellhus is able to adapt that knowledge to the Gnosis.

There's a post somewhere in Three Seas where Bakker discusses it.
If there is additional language, I'd love to see it. But as described, it is poorly outlined that it isn't a different branch in the books. If the glossary is calling it 'the sorcery of' then it very much seems a different principal, especially when described as such.

Even more-so when we have something called Daimotic cants. Other examples of similar language are the Agonies being called the Gnostic cants of Torment. The Dragonhead and Houlari Twin-Tempests are called Anagogic cants. Under the Cants of Calling it specifies there are Anagogic and Gnostic cants of calling. Yet we have the Daimos saying it has Daimotic cants, and the Inversions call them Daimotic cants.

Further, it has rather unique applications of summoning (which we've never seen applied to anything else, besides arguably teleportation, but the act works different and is never compared) and we're never actually shown Kellhus using the Daimos differently than anyone else.

[EDIT Madness: Quote tag.]
« Last Edit: September 29, 2017, 08:28:47 pm by Madness »