[TUC Spoiler] The Ciphrang

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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2017, 09:01:09 pm »
I agree. All the sorceries rely on tampering with the world using some kind of meaning, but the Daimos seems to be the only one actually dealing with stuff IN the Outside.

MSJ

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« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2017, 01:06:00 am »
Quote from:  Sausuna
Even more-so when we have something called Daimotic cants. Other examples of similar language are the Agonies being called the Gnostic cants of Torment. The Dragonhead and Houlari Twin-Tempests are called Anagogic cants. Under the Cants of Calling it specifies there are Anagogic and Gnostic cants of calling. Yet we have the Daimos saying it has Daimotic cants, and the Inversions call them Daimotic cants.

All we have to do is go back and see when Iyokus summons the Ciphrang and we'll know what the Diamos involves.

ETA: excuse me, I didn't read al the posts, obviously using the Diamos to travel to the hells/Outside certainly requires more than summoning a Ciphrang, methinks.

ETAA: could just be a simple as Head on a Pole, or some other reference point to keep the soul fixed, so as it doesn't succumb to the hungers of the Outside. There are probably many different ways and Iyokus's coffees would be awesome to actually see. I don't think we will though.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 02:20:12 am by MSJ »
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Cynical Cat

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« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2017, 10:27:11 am »
All sorcerers walk on the echo of the ground when they fly.  All sorcerers refer back to a person they know at a place they know when they perform the Cants of Calling.  The Cants of Compulsion are Cants of possession, Gnostic and Anagogic both, that force the mind in knew directions and may leave the victim permanently changed.  Both the Gnosis and Anagogic Sorcery use the same terminology and same basic types of defensive sorceries: Wards of Exposure, Wards of Shielding, and Skin Wards.  And so on.  The metaphysical principles involved are the same- it is the mechanisms of manipulation, and the capability of those mechanisms, that differ.

So it is with the Daimos.  It is a type of sorcery, like war cants or wards, or cants of torment but it deals with what most sorcerers shrink from.  The Scarlet Spires did not invent a whole knew kind of sorcery working on different principles when they developed the Daimos.  Instead they applied the Anagogic Sorcery they possessed and understood to the mastering of the Outside.

This is supported not only by logic, but the terminology in the appendix.  The Anagosis, the Gnosis, and the Iswazi are all referred to as "branches" of sorcery.  The Daimos is not only not referred to in such a manner, but is referred to as type of Cant.  The Daimos is not a separate type of sorcery but a rarely studied and even more rarely used set of sorcerous abilities, such are the moral and political repercussions of its use. 

Francis Buck

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« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2017, 01:03:22 pm »
All sorcerers walk on the echo of the ground when they fly.  All sorcerers refer back to a person they know at a place they know when they perform the Cants of Calling.  The Cants of Compulsion are Cants of possession, Gnostic and Anagogic both, that force the mind in knew directions and may leave the victim permanently changed.  Both the Gnosis and Anagogic Sorcery use the same terminology and same basic types of defensive sorceries: Wards of Exposure, Wards of Shielding, and Skin Wards.  And so on.  The metaphysical principles involved are the same- it is the mechanisms of manipulation, and the capability of those mechanisms, that differ.

So it is with the Daimos.  It is a type of sorcery, like war cants or wards, or cants of torment but it deals with what most sorcerers shrink from.  The Scarlet Spires did not invent a whole knew kind of sorcery working on different principles when they developed the Daimos.  Instead they applied the Anagogic Sorcery they possessed and understood to the mastering of the Outside.

This is supported not only by logic, but the terminology in the appendix.  The Anagosis, the Gnosis, and the Iswazi are all referred to as "branches" of sorcery.  The Daimos is not only not referred to in such a manner, but is referred to as type of Cant.  The Daimos is not a separate type of sorcery but a rarely studied and even more rarely used set of sorcerous abilities, such are the moral and political repercussions of its use.

Good post, and I agree with all your main points.

While I'm not sure there will ever be a clean-cut, canonized outline of the distinct forms of magic, I personally think it could pretty much be broken into (at most) three distinct forms. The first form consists of "Sorcery Proper" and includes the Gnostic, Anagogic, and Daimotic branches.

I perpetually waver on whether the Psukhe and the use of Water, in general, should be lumped in with the other Sorcerous methodologies. I do not, however, think Cishaurim and their Psukhe are the sole representatives of Water practictioners. At this point I'm inclined to believe that most, if not at all, of the "theurgic" or divine sorceries used by the likes of Psatma and Porsparian are simply a different application of the Water.

The third category would be the Tekne, which I think is probably not just advanced technology -- at the very least, it is clearly technology that carries intrinsic metaphysical consequences. Aporetics are the odd one out since they seemingly function based on semantic roots without necessarily being Sorcery Proper.

Both Aporetics and the Tekne (as well as sorcerous artifacts) bear various similarities to traditional ideas of witchcraft, and historically witchcraft has been called the "Old Religion". The word Tekne is derived from the Greek 'techne' (or craft). Since the Tekne itself is referred to occasionally as the "Old Science", and given that the Tekne, Aporetics, and Sorcerous artifacts are all a type of 'craft' as it were, it doesn't seem too far-fetched to lump them all together.

It also seems possible that the unifying aspect of these various forms of "witchcraft" is the mysterious language of souls, as depicted on the Ekkinu. I would suggest that most sorcerous artifacts are enchanted by inscriptions of the very same metaphysical source code if you will. This could explain why Emilidis's artifacts are unaffected by Chorae, for example.


Cynical Cat

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« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2017, 10:54:34 am »
Thank you and I agree with your points as well.  The appendix describes the Psukhe as "arcane practice . . ., much like sorcery", which is to say much like sorcery but not sorcery.  Crucially, the Psukhe does not employ language and depend upon meaning for its strength, instead being based on intuition and being fueled by passion.  It too is acting on the same metaphorical principles (walking on the echoes of the ground, its compulsions only working on beings with souls, etcetera) and its users are as vulnerable to Chorae which means even though its technically not sorcery, it is pretty damn close. 

And you're right about the Tekne too.  I had initially thought, way back during the first trilogy, the No-God to be some unholy improvisation of the Tekne and the Aporos.  The sorcery of negation seemed like a good fit for a barrier to souls entering the world, but when we learned that genocide wasn't the Inchoroi's reaction to learning they could be damned once they were stranded on this strange world but instead the whole reason they came to Earwa in the first place, my perspective shifted.  Dragons, products of the Tekne that they are, are clearly partially supernatural in nature.  The Inverse Flame is another piece of high technology that touches on the Outside and, of course, the No-God.  It makes sense.  If physical world and the Outside are connected, if their is interaction, then that means that physical actions can in some way interact with the Outside and technology can be the producer of those actions and effects.

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« Reply #20 on: October 01, 2017, 03:10:54 pm »
It too is acting on the same metaphorical principles (walking on the echoes of the ground, its compulsions only working on beings with souls, etcetera) and its users are as vulnerable to Chorae which means even though its technically not sorcery, it is pretty damn close. 

Aside, they don't seem to walk on the echo of the ground, they're like flying around - which only seemed explicit to me as per Meppa in TGO. Also - I'm fairly sure I'm of a minority on this - Cishaurim don't Salt.
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #21 on: October 01, 2017, 07:06:41 pm »
I was pretty sure they did salt but now I'm starting to doubt. They are certainly killed by chorae, but are they explicitly salted? Since the degree of saltations seems to depend on the magnitude of the mark, and the Cishaurim possess no mark, it would make sense if they didn't salt.

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #22 on: October 01, 2017, 07:16:50 pm »
The robes make telling whether or not they are "walking" hard to determine.  I don't recall any passages that indicate they don't.  And yes, they don't salt but they do die when struck by Chorae (there's no clear description, but they seem to burn and die) and Chorae affect their arcana in the same way they neutralize sorcery.  So "vulnerable to Chorae" does apply, even if the effects are slightly different.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #23 on: October 01, 2017, 07:35:22 pm »
Moe Sr. gets salted by Cnaiur.
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Cynical Cat

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« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2017, 07:41:56 am »
Moe Sr. gets salted by Cnaiur.

No, he burned although that might be because he was so weak in the Water.  TTT page 387  "Moengus gasped, jerked, and spasmed as Cnauiur rolled the Chorae across his cheek.  White light flared from his gouged sockets.  For an instant, Cnaiur thought, it seemed the God watched him through a man's skull.

What do you see?

But them his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of what had possessed them.
"Not again!" Cnaiur howled at the sagging form."

Bolding is mine.  He burns, he does not turn to salt, and his body sags.  Now Inrau also doesn't have the typical Chorae reaction, but he was barely marked and we all know Moenghus was weak in the Water. 

Page 378, Proyas hits one of the Incandanti with his Chorae.  "Then a flash, a black-ringed circle light, from which the saffron figure plummeted like a sodden flag."  It's unclear exactly how the Cishaurum dies, but the flash of light and the death are consistent with Chorae-sorcerer interactions.  It's clear that the Psukhe isn't quite sorcery, but its close enough as far as most things are considered.  Obviously, the eyes of the Few disagree and the judgement of the God of Gods remains to be seen.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2017, 05:33:17 pm »
Moe Sr. gets salted by Cnaiur.

No, he burned although that might be because he was so weak in the Water.  TTT page 387  "Moengus gasped, jerked, and spasmed as Cnauiur rolled the Chorae across his cheek.  White light flared from his gouged sockets.  For an instant, Cnaiur thought, it seemed the God watched him through a man's skull.

What do you see?

But them his lover fell away, burning as he must, such was the force of what had possessed them.
"Not again!" Cnaiur howled at the sagging form."

Bolding is mine.  He burns, he does not turn to salt, and his body sags.  Now Inrau also doesn't have the typical Chorae reaction, but he was barely marked and we all know Moenghus was weak in the Water. 

Page 378, Proyas hits one of the Incandanti with his Chorae.  "Then a flash, a black-ringed circle light, from which the saffron figure plummeted like a sodden flag."  It's unclear exactly how the Cishaurum dies, but the flash of light and the death are consistent with Chorae-sorcerer interactions.  It's clear that the Psukhe isn't quite sorcery, but its close enough as far as most things are considered.  Obviously, the eyes of the Few disagree and the judgement of the God of Gods remains to be seen.

Thanks for that - I have to reread this series, I'm "remembering" all sorts of alternative facts ... sigh
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« Reply #26 on: October 03, 2017, 06:30:14 pm »
Lol, as I've maintained for years now - though I expect to be disappointed inevitably given Bakker's comments at Zaudunyanicon about Fane having one of the most wrong interpretations of Earwa's reality - none of the three Cishaurim, killed by Chorae on page, explicitly Salt.

What seems to happen to them seems more akin to the idea of Rapture... neatly folded robes on the ground as the corporeal body returns to the Source ;).
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Cynical Cat

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« Reply #27 on: October 03, 2017, 07:58:23 pm »
That's also not correct because there's clearly some kind of body.  "Falling like a sodden flag" means that there is a fair amount of weight to cause it fall like that instead of cloth on the wind and, of course, Moenghus's body remains.

Cynical Cat

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« Reply #28 on: October 04, 2017, 09:43:07 am »
A few additional points.  One, I don't think the Aporos and Tekne are closely related, although the Tekne clearly does have the ability to interact with the supernatural.  Like all interacting forces, its possible they can be combined or come into conflict (Chorae and Wracu) but that doesn't make related arts.

At this point I'm inclined to believe that most, if not at all, of the "theurgic" or divine sorceries used by the likes of Psatma and Porsparian are simply a different application of the Water.

This isn't true because we've seen Psatma handle a Chorae, specifically the one she used to destroy the Swayal infiltrator.  Something that clearly isn't sorcery is at work. 

[EDIT Madness: Fixed quote tag.]
« Last Edit: October 04, 2017, 05:36:40 pm by Madness »

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« Reply #29 on: October 04, 2017, 05:37:18 pm »
That's also not correct because there's clearly some kind of body.  "Falling like a sodden flag" means that there is a fair amount of weight to cause it fall like that instead of cloth on the wind and, of course, Moenghus's body remains.

Truth, though that could just be heavy robes.

What do you make of the "burning as he must" and "sagging form" portion of what you quoted from TTT above? Could be the body dissipating and the clothes sagging without the body therein? Cnaiur's too far gone to notice ;).
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