[TUC Spoilers] The Celmomian Prophecy

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JerakoKayne

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« on: September 23, 2017, 03:46:44 am »
... is completely false! Or at least, as we have been led to believe the After can precede the Before.

Nau-Cayuti was the No-God, and, as Kelmomas, exists outside the Outside. Therefore he could have given no such prophecy to his father.

Yet much (so much!) has been affixed to this "prophecy". Even the Mutilated buy into it. I see very many arguments based upon it on these forums.

To me, this is suggesting a more subtle point about the beliefs of people creating the outcomes, rather than any sense of predestination.

I actually have a great deal of thoughts on this topic, but I'm more curious about yours. Care to share?

[EDIT Madness: Fixed.]
« Last Edit: September 25, 2017, 05:27:58 pm by Madness »

Yellow

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« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2017, 08:45:42 am »
I don't think it was ever inferred that Nau-Cayuti sent the prophecy, though Celmomas said he could see him (brain failing at point of death?). Rather, it was inferred to be Gilgaol, though it seems it was actually Ajokli.

I think Bakker has come out against the idea of Subjective Truth leading to Objective Truth, and so I don't particularly buy into your idea.

Is the prophecy true? Has the world ended? Not yet, right?

There's also the words of Aurang to Soma in TWLW regarding the true and untrue prophecies, and how both must be observed. I've never been able to work out what was meant there, so I reserve judgment!
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TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2017, 08:44:39 pm »
Do we know if the prophecy has actually been fulfilled yet?

There are lots of Anasurimbor in the books, but have any of them actually 'returned' (and if so from where/ what), and are we know at the 'ending of the world'.
Sez who?
Seswatha, that's who.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2017, 12:08:13 am »
And the dude gets around and likes to fuck - so there could be bastards running around as well.
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Madness

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« Reply #4 on: September 25, 2017, 05:29:44 pm »

Can you tell us what was up with the Old Father ordering the skin spy to preserve Mimara?  Even once we know the 'false prophecy' refers to the misunderstanding about the Anasurimbor returning at the end of the world I'm still not sure why they thought Mimara could prove beneficial to their cause.

So if you look at prophecy in superpositional terms, then any given prophecy will only be true of one set of forking paths. If you believe that a meta-prophecy lies buried among those prophecies, then you will be circumspect about the ways you wage war against destiny. There's no end to the potential counterfactuals when it comes to the Judging Eye, given the apparent randomness of its opening and closing. If the Consult has any inkling of Mimara's importance, they will be circumspect.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2017, 04:42:39 pm »
Celmomian prophecy has 2 clauses.

1) Kellhus returns at the end of the world. (Per latter dream, it was Ajokli showing Celmomas Kellhus' Image)
This happened - I'm not sure what 'the end of the world' might mean if not the defeat of the Ordeal and the Resumption. ie, this lines of with 'the first apocalypse' which was also the end of the world. Its the end, again, if you get what I'm saying.

2)The world ends when Seswatha dies.
Debatable and ongoing.


Granted, most of what the dying King said was nonsensical, he misinterpreted the whole vision, and we never actually heard Ajokli talking. So basically, its all interpretive bullshit because the prophesy as told by Celmomas was worthless - totally false. OTOH, The prophesy/vision given to him by Ajokli is still not entirely clear, at least partially fullfilled already,  and is at least more clear now than it was in PoN. I'm not even sure Ajokli mentioned Seswatha at all, so maybe the Ajokli Prophesy only had one clause.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

Sausuna

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« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2017, 04:54:46 pm »
I really don't know how much weight to give the prophecy given we don't even know if Akka's dream about it is true whatsoever. Seeing strange Seswatha dreams is one thing. See Nau-Cayuti dreams, who is seemingly Seswatha's son? Makes a little sense. Seeing dreams from Celmomas, who has no relation to the two? No clue why that would happen.

If I had to guess, I think the prophecy was either of two things.
- Ajokli being a tricky dude and seeding it just for it to affect the future later by laying the ground for Kellhus or something.
- Somehow Kellhus and Ajokli were jumping around time memeing from hell, the message was an accident, and also misinterpreted.

profgrape

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« Reply #7 on: September 27, 2017, 05:59:24 pm »
- Somehow Kellhus and Ajokli were jumping around time memeing from hell, the message was an accident, and also misinterpreted.

That's a cool idea.   H and I had a Quorum chat a while back about how the Outside was effectively a superspace encompassing every instant of the World's existence for all time.  If this is remotely accurate, it wouldn't be surprising that tinkering with the Outside would have unexpected temporal effects on the World.

JerakoKayne

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« Reply #8 on: September 29, 2017, 02:06:47 am »
There are no accidents with Kellhus, only mistakes. Even the Outside is Conditioned Ground (he's been there before).

That said, the idea that it's not even Celmomas' son as the "sender" of the prophecy does give me some pause.

MSJ

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« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2017, 03:06:39 am »
Why? He says to Ses that the Gods say such sweet things and honor him. He just sees Nayu rides across the sky (which is ambiguous in Akka's Cell dream) on a golden (or white).
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

JerakoKayne

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« Reply #10 on: October 07, 2017, 09:24:22 pm »
Why? He says to Ses that the Gods say such sweet things and honor him. He just sees Nayu rides across the sky (which is ambiguous in Akka's Cell dream) on a golden (or white).

Because I was operating under the assumption that, at face value as supposed by the characters in the story, Nau-Cayuti as the sender completely invalidates any objective meaning behind the 'prophecy'. Nau-Cayuti could not have sent the prophecy, therefore it's nothing more than the delusion of a dying man. That so many have acted on it in the years to follow is interesting, but for entirely different reasons.

Though I'm realizing that "Nau-Cayuti or nobody" is a false dichotomy, and the notion that someone else sent Celmomas' dying daydream raises even wilder questions regarding just who, and why. It's become more interesting to me to ponder what Outside agency could do such a thing, rather than less, as it was when I first posed the question in this thread.

Whether Kellhus or Ajokli or whomever, machinations from the Outside (which certainly seems to exist outside of time in the general sense), he's perhaps conditioning the way for his own arrival. Though if Kellhus, it's getting into wibbly-wobbly-timey-wimey stuff that's even harder to speculate on, because that much was already done before he ever went Outside.

Which leads me to questions about what else Kellhus might have tried to do to Condition the way for himself. Nau-Cayuti, as TNG, shouldn't even be visible to any Outside agency, and yet he is somehow the "beloved of the Gods?" (though I forget where exactly this reference came from).

Is another agency posing as NC in the Outside? Saying sweet things that comfort, as well as serving interests beyond what the subject is immediately aware of is certainly a Kellian-style action.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 09:26:37 pm by JerakoKayne »

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #11 on: October 07, 2017, 10:16:01 pm »
There is the obvious complication in the fact that Nau-Cayuti was the No-God, but the System encountered an abrupt termination that time.

MSJ

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« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2017, 11:53:30 pm »
But Nayu never sent a dream to Celmommas. Celmommas has a vision. The stuff about Nayu is the ramblings of a guilt stricken father. Gilgoal comes to him, shows Kellhus and say, "Behold, the end of the World!". Then takes Celmommas's soul.

Funny though in hindsight that Cel tells Seswatha that the end of the World lies in his (Seswatha) hands. And who's left to rally humanity? Akka.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,