Kellhus, Kelmomas and the Narindar

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Banjangle

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« on: September 26, 2017, 06:24:07 pm »
Apologies if this has been covered before but I couldn't find anything by searching.

With the Narindar are they fated to be successful unless some interference by the No-God?

After thinking about Kellhus and the Narindar it seems that in order for him to survive both of the assassinations, he has to ultimately lose in his attempt to prevent the No-God. To prevent the No-God after the fact would cause a paradox in that he would not have had Kelmomas to prevent either assassination attempt from being successful.

Would Kellhus potentially had the knowledge that in order to survive he needed to have some form of contact with the No-God at both junctions, and that the No-God had to be revived? Or is this attributing a greater level of foresight than Kellhus would have possessed. It would seem to explain why he would go back to Mommen to rescue Kelmomas, and why he let him live as he would need him to become the No-God in order to save his past self. Also it would add further reason to why he has him in such a prominent position when Sorweel makes his attempt, possibly he was aware of the risk at that moment.

I can't quite reconcile it with how he met his end, except the fact he would know he has to lose at that point and Kelmomas has to be used for the No-God. It also relies on him having knowledge of Kelmomas role as the No-God prior to the first assassination attempt in order for him to go back to Mommen in the first place.

Or perhaps it is simply fate and that by going back to Momen to save Esmenet damns him by causing himself to need the No-Gods presence to survive by coming in contact with the Narindar, and therefore locking that future in place.

SuJuroit

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« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2017, 07:37:54 pm »
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With the Narindar are they fated to be successful unless some interference by the No-God?

Not necessarily.  Narindari are cultic assassins.  As per the Glossary, some of them (particular Ajokli's) may be granted The Unerring Grace, but it's not absolute and can come and go.  Yatwer's Narindari, White Luck Warriors, possess absolute Unerring Grace to the degree that you describe above.  Only be rewriting reality (and the gods themselves) can a White Luck Warrior fail.

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After thinking about Kellhus and the Narindar it seems that in order for him to survive both of the assassinations, he has to ultimately lose in his attempt to prevent the No-God. To prevent the No-God after the fact would cause a paradox in that he would not have had Kelmomas to prevent either assassination attempt from being successful.

Good observation, and I agree.  Kellhus indicates as much when he states that at some point the Consult MUST succeed and the No-God MUST be reborn.  However...

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Would Kellhus potentially had the knowledge that in order to survive he needed to have some form of contact with the No-God at both junctions, and that the No-God had to be revived? Or is this attributing a greater level of foresight than Kellhus would have possessed. It would seem to explain why he would go back to Mommen to rescue Kelmomas, and why he let him live as he would need him to become the No-God in order to save his past self. Also it would add further reason to why he has him in such a prominent position when Sorweel makes his attempt, possibly he was aware of the risk at that moment.

I don't think so.  Kellhus was fooled by Kelmomas. He says as much, but more importantly, his actions bear that out.  He doesn't waste the Strength on cracked bowls.  If he knew that Kelmomas was as crazy and dangerous as he was, he would have acted on that, as he did with Inrilatus.  In short, Kellhus was saved from the White Luck Warriors through luck, not skill or foresight.

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I can't quite reconcile it with how he met his end, except the fact he would know he has to lose at that point and Kelmomas has to be used for the No-God. It also relies on him having knowledge of Kelmomas role as the No-God prior to the first assassination attempt in order for him to go back to Mommen in the first place.

I don't think there's any textual evidence supporting Kellhus knowing that.  He wanted to kill Kelmomas and almost certainly would have if Esmenet had gone along, but not because he knew or suspected Kelmomas was the No-God.  Simply because he was a dangerous wild card.


Madness

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« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2017, 03:22:54 pm »
After thinking about Kellhus and the Narindar it seems that in order for him to survive both of the assassinations, he has to ultimately lose in his attempt to prevent the No-God. To prevent the No-God after the fact would cause a paradox in that he would not have had Kelmomas to prevent either assassination attempt from being successful.

Very interesting.

Also, welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Banjangle.
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« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2017, 01:11:14 pm »
After thinking about Kellhus and the Narindar it seems that in order for him to survive both of the assassinations, he has to ultimately lose in his attempt to prevent the No-God. To prevent the No-God after the fact would cause a paradox in that he would not have had Kelmomas to prevent either assassination attempt from being successful.

Very interesting.

Also, welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Banjangle.

I think Kellhus has an inkling of this, because he does say that at some point, "the Consult must win."
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasūrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #4 on: October 05, 2017, 03:50:45 pm »
I think Kellhus has an inkling of this, because he does say that at some point, "the Consult must win."
I'm presently entertaining the possibility of this being related to the Celmomian Prophecy. The Gods talk about the end of the world, so there is something they perceive as such. If the world is shut off by the Consult, then it's not hard to imagine that from the perspective of the Hundred it will cease to exist (or everything past the point of shutting off will cease to exist), the same way the No-God doesn't exist for them.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #5 on: October 05, 2017, 10:10:34 pm »
I think Kellhus has an inkling of this, because he does say that at some point, "the Consult must win."
I'm presently entertaining the possibility of this being related to the Celmomian Prophecy. The Gods talk about the end of the world, so there is something they perceive as such. If the world is shut off by the Consult, then it's not hard to imagine that from the perspective of the Hundred it will cease to exist (or everything past the point of shutting off will cease to exist), the same way the No-God doesn't exist for them.
How would they perceive something they can't see? They're blind to the No-God and the meaning of the Ark, to themselves being re-written (and ultimately erased?). That said, I don't know the answer. It'd make sense if this happened after Sorweel died and Ajokli's take-over was "secured", but it doesn't.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #6 on: October 05, 2017, 10:22:28 pm »
The Gods being rewritten doesn't strictly mean them being erased, and even if it is the Consult's understanding or goal, it might not come to pass (or at least not fully). Let's assume the Gods see the world and its timeline as a whole. At the same time they do see something they call (presumably, since the Celmomian Prophecy itself is in contention) "the end of the world". So from their perspective there is some limit for what they can see, and they are aware of this limit (here it's important that presently we consider them mostly not aware of the No-God; I'm not prepared to discuss what this could possibly mean). And the only way of interfering with the Gods' vision that we have evidence of is the process of shutting the world off and its enactor, the No-God.

Monkhound

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« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2017, 07:47:47 pm »
A slightly different angle I got thinking about last week: In the first three books of TAE we get the perception explained that, from all of the active POV, the gods are hunting Kellhus. Esmenet even grows to perceive that the gods are hunting her whole family, trying to get to Kellhus. Yet barely any of the attention of the agents of the gods is actually directly targeted at him. In text, we actually only see Sorweel directly target Kellhus. The gross of the attention is focused on Momemn (invasion, earthquake, assassins).

What we do get though, is the description in TWL that both Inrilatas and Maithanet see what Kelmomas is.
At the same time, we now know that Kellhus is now salted, and no longer visible for Ajokli and (by extension) the other gods. The gods, seeing all time at the same time, therefore have always seen Kellhus, and therefore have maybe not been targeting him all along. Notice that if they had, they could (and probably would) have before, for example during the First Holy War, or during most of the Unification Wars.

At the same time, we get no mentions of the gods acting against Kellhus and his progeny until the flashback in Shigek at the beginning of TJE. I don't have the book with me right now, so I can't check the date of the chapter, but I'm going to assume this corresponds to the birth of Kelmomas and Samarmas, or  possibly the moment Kel and Sami get separated.

The idea I got was that the gods know that something is wrong without knowing exactly what, but that the disturbance is located in Momemn. That's the reason why Yatwer and Momas target Momemn (and not whereverthe Ordeal is at the time), first accidentally hitting Thelliopa, and nearly killing both Kellhus and Kelmomas.

Any thoughts?
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Wilshire

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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2018, 04:51:14 pm »
The idea I got was that the gods know that something is wrong without knowing exactly what, but that the disturbance is located in Momemn. That's the reason why Yatwer and Momas target Momemn (and not whereverthe Ordeal is at the time), first accidentally hitting Thelliopa, and nearly killing both Kellhus and Kelmomas.

Any thoughts?

Very interesting. The gods do suspiciously seem to be targeting places that are near Kelmomas. Someone recently mentioned that the Celmomian Prophecy specifically shows Kellhus, but it might make sense if they actually intended to show Kelmomas except given their blindness surrounding him ended up thinking Kellhus was the issue. Not to beat a dead horse, the Prophecy really turns on Seswatha's death being the end of the world and the Anasurimbor being simply the harbinger, but still I think this is probably significant.
Celmomas botched the delivery of the prophecy anyways. The message was much more a warning against the Anasurimbor (specifically showing Kellhus but probably meaning Kelmomas).
One of the other conditions of possibility.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2018, 05:39:09 pm »
The idea I got was that the gods know that something is wrong without knowing exactly what, but that the disturbance is located in Momemn. That's the reason why Yatwer and Momas target Momemn (and not whereverthe Ordeal is at the time), first accidentally hitting Thelliopa, and nearly killing both Kellhus and Kelmomas.

Any thoughts?

Very interesting. The gods do suspiciously seem to be targeting places that are near Kelmomas. Someone recently mentioned that the Celmomian Prophecy specifically shows Kellhus, but it might make sense if they actually intended to show Kelmomas except given their blindness surrounding him ended up thinking Kellhus was the issue. Not to beat a dead horse, the Prophecy really turns on Seswatha's death being the end of the world and the Anasurimbor being simply the harbinger, but still I think this is probably significant.
Celmomas botched the delivery of the prophecy anyways. The message was much more a warning against the Anasurimbor (specifically showing Kellhus but probably meaning Kelmomas).
I think Momas was going after Ajokli here. Ajokli was probably the only God who sensed something was wrong due to the Ark being located in the deepest topos.

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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2018, 04:22:16 pm »
I think Momas was going after Ajokli here. Ajokli was probably the only God who sensed something was wrong due to the Ark being located in the deepest topos.

Indeed. As far as my reading goes, the Gods were hunting Ajokli the whole time (or at least going after Kellhus to stop Ajokli making his play through him).
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Monkhound

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« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2018, 04:20:11 pm »
I think Momas was going after Ajokli here. Ajokli was probably the only God who sensed something was wrong due to the Ark being located in the deepest topos.

Indeed. As far as my reading goes, the Gods were hunting Ajokli the whole time (or at least going after Kellhus to stop Ajokli making his play through him).

Yet Kellhus is not in Momemn when the gods strike, which is why I think they target Kelmomas, through an updated vision of their reality, which coincides with prophetic forms becoming impossible.
Also: could it be that the Celmomian Prophecy was true at the time of the death of Celmomas, but that it changed offer time without Seswatha "sending updates" via the Dreams?
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2018, 05:57:22 pm »
I think Momas was going after Ajokli here. Ajokli was probably the only God who sensed something was wrong due to the Ark being located in the deepest topos.

Indeed. As far as my reading goes, the Gods were hunting Ajokli the whole time (or at least going after Kellhus to stop Ajokli making his play through him).

Yet Kellhus is not in Momemn when the gods strike, which is why I think they target Kelmomas, through an updated vision of their reality, which coincides with prophetic forms becoming impossible.
Also: could it be that the Celmomian Prophecy was true at the time of the death of Celmomas, but that it changed offer time without Seswatha "sending updates" via the Dreams?
Remember what the WLW sees: Kellhus deflecting the chorae and being struck by a piece of collapsing building. It was causally fated that Kellhus would die as a result of the WLW and Momas earthquake, except that Kelmomas, who the Gods cannot see, short circuited this plan.