The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment

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Sausuna

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« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2017, 09:38:26 pm »
Madness, seems like a very well thought and written post. Well done, I say. And about as respectable a disagreement as one can have.

Redeagl, it isn't his responsibility to comment on the matter (assuming he saw it previously) or even give researched debate on it. And I'm not sure why you feel as though you are entitled to such. So strongly that you feel it appropriate to both call him names and tell people not to buy his books.
Ignoring passionate fan projects completely kills it and most importantly, is certainly " not a good adequate". ( :P  ) .And yes, he certainly did see it previously, he sees every single post made about him in FB groups he is active in. As for my strong feelings, discovering that an author whose books I greatly enjoy, is not " a  very good guy" in first person does that. Like I said, I really liked his books ( Except Red Sister. That was shit. ), but I also recommend against them. Is that bad?  It's just my opinion, that Lawrence doesn't deserve your money.
Does he read all manner of Facebook post about him in detail or does it he skim? Does he typically consider them all very much? Hell if I know. I barely glance over stuff I see at me. Either way, whether he saw it or not is not quite as important, we can proceed assuming he did, if you'd prefer.

I don't have issue with recommending against his books specifically. But I think you insulting his character and claiming he's 'not a very good guy' isn't well justified. And the idea that that is also the justification for telling people not to buy them. It isn't his responsibility to read and/or respond to all discussion about him, especially not in debate of an issue. And it doesn't make him a bad person to want to earn more money. Especially when his response seemed rather political, whether or not his claim is necessarily correct. I understand entirely not agreeing with what he said and, to an extent, not liking it either. But it just seems like insults are a step too far. That's what bothers me on the matter.

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« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2017, 10:55:57 pm »
Hey, when I first started reading TSA an encountered Baller online persona, well to say the least, I was very put off. I thought him condescending to those not as knowledgeable and not willing to give into the fact that he is in any, way, shape or form.....wrong. That being said, those were the old ROH arguments and such and a time when he was battling to get people to understand him and defending himself from all angles.

I've since learned to enjoy his online persona. His a veritable Ajokli, and I reckon not much different from Lawrence. If Bakker had the choice between SA and all his fans promoting his work so he would get better sales, it would be the latter, no doubt about it.

But, here's the thing. Its not the fans responsibility to sell any authors books. That's his responsibility (Bakker) by engaging fans, social media and attending Cons and such. He just don't want to do it. And, well, his sales reflect that. Lawrence does all those things and could care less for a fan forum. Not saying it's wrong to have one, for many reasons listed abo've.

I'm sorry, but if TNG fails to be picked up by Overlook or not published for some reason it is only man's fault, and that's Bakkker. He just doesn't want to do anything extra to get his stuff out there. And, unfortunately when he does chose to engage, he usually ends up in a fight with a fan.

Lawrence doesn't do this. He is very, very involved in advertising and interacting with fans. Just doesn't think a forum will help sales. But, let's all agree, that Lawrence's game plan for better sales well outpaced Bakker's.

But, I could give shot less. Banker is my favorite author. I've come to appreciate his view and how he sticks to his guns. I have faith he'll make it happen. He just might be dead. I think with the way society is heading, violence in TV more ready accepted, Banker will get his due.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Redeagl

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« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2017, 11:14:22 pm »
Madness, seems like a very well thought and written post. Well done, I say. And about as respectable a disagreement as one can have.

Redeagl, it isn't his responsibility to comment on the matter (assuming he saw it previously) or even give researched debate on it. And I'm not sure why you feel as though you are entitled to such. So strongly that you feel it appropriate to both call him names and tell people not to buy his books.
Ignoring passionate fan projects completely kills it and most importantly, is certainly " not a good adequate". ( :P  ) .And yes, he certainly did see it previously, he sees every single post made about him in FB groups he is active in. As for my strong feelings, discovering that an author whose books I greatly enjoy, is not " a  very good guy" in first person does that. Like I said, I really liked his books ( Except Red Sister. That was shit. ), but I also recommend against them. Is that bad?  It's just my opinion, that Lawrence doesn't deserve your money.
Does he read all manner of Facebook post about him in detail or does it he skim? Does he typically consider them all very much? Hell if I know. I barely glance over stuff I see at me. Either way, whether he saw it or not is not quite as important, we can proceed assuming he did, if you'd prefer.

I don't have issue with recommending against his books specifically. But I think you insulting his character and claiming he's 'not a very good guy' isn't well justified. And the idea that that is also the justification for telling people not to buy them. It isn't his responsibility to read and/or respond to all discussion about him, especially not in debate of an issue. And it doesn't make him a bad person to want to earn more money. Especially when his response seemed rather political, whether or not his claim is necessarily correct. I understand entirely not agreeing with what he said and, to an extent, not liking it either. But it just seems like insults are a step too far. That's what bothers me on the matter.
Ah, it appears that there was a little misunderstanding there. So, a TL;DR of Lawrence: He is pretty damn social, unlike say, Bakker. He is active in Facebook fantasy groups, reddit, etc etc... You name it. He is also, more or less, a popular author. Of course he doesn't see every post or comment anybody makes on him at anytime everywhere. That said, like I said, he is social. I have him on my friend list on Facebook, he comments on all kinds of stuff so, his ignoring the public posts about the forum, then commenting in a private profile instead, is not a good move. So, he made his comment which is in the original post. I replied with " General places suck. " , Madness replied too and the person whose page we were talking in. We disagreed with his comments. He got notifications. He didn't reply. After a day, Madness replied with a request to Lawrence to post about the forum. Another ignore, but after like an hour, Lawrence posted about a Reddit/fantasy thread asking about his books, presumably to get his fans abroad.So no, of course he isn't entitled to respond to every discussion about him. But when he posts a "questionable" comment then ignore all different point of views, then make a blog post about it and not accepting any comments..............That's a slap to the face. And it's not the first time I see him being "not very pleasant" either.Everybody wants to earn more money. That's no secret. But would you say that say, thieves are not bad for just wanting some money?  If someone got me a gift that I didn't like at all, would I just tell him that I don't need it and ignore him for the rest of the day?  That someone only had good intentions by bringing me this gift. Why wouldn't I at least, thank him and treat him well despite my dislike of that gift ?  It's simple manners. Authors who treat their fans "unkindly" just for earning more money, does not deserve to earn that money.
Sorry for the long rant, it's 1AM and it have been a long day. I will probably make a more meaningful reply tomorrow.
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Redeagl

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« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2017, 11:18:35 pm »
Btw, a quick reply about my "strong language"since it seems to offend. English isn't my first language. I don't really swear much in my first language , but in English, I don't know. It just doesn't really feel like swearing. So words like " Douchebag" are not very offensive to me, you see. Just cultural differences :)  .
“The thoughts of all men arise from the darkness. If you are the movement of your soul, and the cause of that movement precedes you, then how could you ever call your thoughts your own? How could you be anything other than a slave to the darkness that comes before?”

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Sausuna

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« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2017, 01:19:17 am »
Madness, seems like a very well thought and written post. Well done, I say. And about as respectable a disagreement as one can have.

Redeagl, it isn't his responsibility to comment on the matter (assuming he saw it previously) or even give researched debate on it. And I'm not sure why you feel as though you are entitled to such. So strongly that you feel it appropriate to both call him names and tell people not to buy his books.
Ignoring passionate fan projects completely kills it and most importantly, is certainly " not a good adequate". ( :P  ) .And yes, he certainly did see it previously, he sees every single post made about him in FB groups he is active in. As for my strong feelings, discovering that an author whose books I greatly enjoy, is not " a  very good guy" in first person does that. Like I said, I really liked his books ( Except Red Sister. That was shit. ), but I also recommend against them. Is that bad?  It's just my opinion, that Lawrence doesn't deserve your money.
Does he read all manner of Facebook post about him in detail or does it he skim? Does he typically consider them all very much? Hell if I know. I barely glance over stuff I see at me. Either way, whether he saw it or not is not quite as important, we can proceed assuming he did, if you'd prefer.

I don't have issue with recommending against his books specifically. But I think you insulting his character and claiming he's 'not a very good guy' isn't well justified. And the idea that that is also the justification for telling people not to buy them. It isn't his responsibility to read and/or respond to all discussion about him, especially not in debate of an issue. And it doesn't make him a bad person to want to earn more money. Especially when his response seemed rather political, whether or not his claim is necessarily correct. I understand entirely not agreeing with what he said and, to an extent, not liking it either. But it just seems like insults are a step too far. That's what bothers me on the matter.
Ah, it appears that there was a little misunderstanding there. So, a TL;DR of Lawrence: He is pretty damn social, unlike say, Bakker. He is active in Facebook fantasy groups, reddit, etc etc... You name it. He is also, more or less, a popular author. Of course he doesn't see every post or comment anybody makes on him at anytime everywhere. That said, like I said, he is social. I have him on my friend list on Facebook, he comments on all kinds of stuff so, his ignoring the public posts about the forum, then commenting in a private profile instead, is not a good move. So, he made his comment which is in the original post. I replied with " General places suck. " , Madness replied too and the person whose page we were talking in. We disagreed with his comments. He got notifications. He didn't reply. After a day, Madness replied with a request to Lawrence to post about the forum. Another ignore, but after like an hour, Lawrence posted about a Reddit/fantasy thread asking about his books, presumably to get his fans abroad.So no, of course he isn't entitled to respond to every discussion about him. But when he posts a "questionable" comment then ignore all different point of views, then make a blog post about it and not accepting any comments..............That's a slap to the face. And it's not the first time I see him being "not very pleasant" either.Everybody wants to earn more money. That's no secret. But would you say that say, thieves are not bad for just wanting some money?  If someone got me a gift that I didn't like at all, would I just tell him that I don't need it and ignore him for the rest of the day?  That someone only had good intentions by bringing me this gift. Why wouldn't I at least, thank him and treat him well despite my dislike of that gift ?  It's simple manners. Authors who treat their fans "unkindly" just for earning more money, does not deserve to earn that money.
Sorry for the long rant, it's 1AM and it have been a long day. I will probably make a more meaningful reply tomorrow.
I appreciate the elaboration. I want to make a specific note on the thieves analogy in that theft is a crime, it unlawfully deprives other people of their goods. And seems quite inappropriate comparison for that reason, what he has done is neither illegal nor really depriving people of goods. If we're talking about a gift, typically such a thing is a personal exchange.

This entire thing just reinforces my thought that you feel entitled to something, a detailed discussion in this, because what, they are in part a public figure? It is the same rationale one would make to interrupt an actor at dinner to get an autograph because they signed one before. Qualifying it as a 'slap in the face' seems an exaggeration to me based on strong feelings on the matter, no offense intended. I'm not even quite sure I'd consider the situation very 'unkindly', it seems quite tame. Especially if he thinks it hurts his livelihood.

But, as you say, perhaps I'm reading too much into the language. As I somewhat noted, I understand disagreeing with what he said or even being annoyed. I'm, perhaps, more sparing with such words with people I'm unfamiliar with. And, clearly, I know less about the author's habits than you do. Perhaps it just comes down to semantics because I'm less involved.

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« Reply #20 on: October 04, 2017, 01:39:51 pm »
Would just like to say, thanks for working through this civilly, folks. :)
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« Reply #21 on: October 04, 2017, 02:18:11 pm »
Would just like to say, thanks for working through this civilly, folks. :)

I'd also like to say thanks, for whittling down the amount of prospective books I might read in the future.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #22 on: October 04, 2017, 04:14:13 pm »
Would just like to say, thanks for working through this civilly, folks. :)

I'd also like to say thanks, for whittling down the amount of prospective books I might read in the future.

Lol. I'm not letting abrasive author experience color my perspective of a book before I read it - only after ;) . Still on my list.
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« Reply #23 on: October 04, 2017, 04:32:36 pm »
I don't know how quick the turnaround on Lawrence's blog for approving posts is but it would seem he will not be sharing my response.

Madness, seems like a very well thought and written post. Well done, I say. And about as respectable a disagreement as one can have.

Thanks. I do what I can.

...

Lmao, MSJ, your phone must have autocorrected to at least three different spellings or words resembling Bakker ;).

Would just like to say, thanks for working through this civilly, folks. :)

I'd also like to say thanks, for whittling down the amount of prospective books I might read in the future.

Lol. I'm not letting abrasive author experience color my perspective of a book before I read it - only after ;) . Still on my list.

Indeed, #2. I very much liked The Red Queen's War.
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MSJ

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« Reply #24 on: October 04, 2017, 04:38:35 pm »
Quote from:  Madness
Lmao, MSJ, your phone must have autocorrected to at least three different spellings or words resembling Bakker ;).

Always does. Again, sometimes I can edit, sometimes I can't. I don't proofread...all the time. Bad choice on my part.

But, in context on what I wrote about Bakker. I just listened to him, and he sounds like a very humble, genuine and very smart dude. Doesn't seem like the guy I had in my head so many years ago.

I like that you have a Lawrence fan forum and he's posses about it, lol. I've read everything but Red Sister. I should start making an abundance of threads.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #25 on: October 04, 2017, 05:46:59 pm »
Quote from:  Madness
Lmao, MSJ, your phone must have autocorrected to at least three different spellings or words resembling Bakker ;).

Always does. Again, sometimes I can edit, sometimes I can't. I don't proofread...all the time. Bad choice on my part.

But, in context on what I wrote about Bakker. I just listened to him, and he sounds like a very humble, genuine and very smart dude. Doesn't seem like the guy I had in my head so many years ago.

I like that you have a Lawrence fan forum and he's posses about it, lol. I've read everything but Red Sister. I should start making an abundance of threads.

Yes, let me welcome you to The Broken Empire ;)!
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« Reply #26 on: October 05, 2017, 10:58:12 am »
Lol. I'm not letting abrasive author experience color my perspective of a book before I read it - only after ;) . Still on my list.

I was sort of joking, but not really.  I mean, if I am going to read something, there needs to be a compelling reason to do so.  The default is to not waste my time, until proven I will not be wasting my time.  I am old and I don't have much time, so I only want the best of the best, really.

So, in the sense, this guy's demeanor has done nothing to suggest I should read any of his books.  And I haven't seen anything else to suggest I should either.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #27 on: October 05, 2017, 01:58:19 pm »
Lol. I'm not letting abrasive author experience color my perspective of a book before I read it - only after ;) . Still on my list.

I was sort of joking, but not really.  I mean, if I am going to read something, there needs to be a compelling reason to do so.  The default is to not waste my time, until proven I will not be wasting my time.  I am old and I don't have much time, so I only want the best of the best, really.

So, in the sense, this guy's demeanor has done nothing to suggest I should read any of his books.  And I haven't seen anything else to suggest I should either.
I would give his books a solid B. The setting, action, and characters are terribly enjoyable. That said, for some reason it always gave me a sort of 'young adult adventure' feel, not sure why. And the main character is kind of a Mary Sue (as much as I loath the term).

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« Reply #28 on: October 05, 2017, 02:06:17 pm »
I would give his books a solid B. The setting, action, and characters are terribly enjoyable. That said, for some reason it always gave me a sort of 'young adult adventure' feel, not sure why. And the main character is kind of a Mary Sue (as much as I loath the term).

I think I have enough A material I'd like to get to before I really dive too deep into the B material.  Unless, like I said, there is some compelling extenuating reason to.  Good isn't really all that attractive when great is just as available.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2017, 02:54:28 pm »
So...

My curiosity is stoked regarding whether or not fan forums could possibly hurt an author's sales directly or the trajectory/growth of their sales indirectly - especially given Lawrence's deference to data in basically all other inquiry.

I don't know how to continue this conversation without visibility so I'm thinking of linking Lawrence's blog post, the forum, my censored response, and this thread to an r/fantasy thread...

I imagine that's not going to please Lawrence and I may come off as an asshole? (Which I apparently am.)

Anyone want to set me straight before I do something dumb ;)?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 02:58:32 pm by Madness »
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