The Mark Lawrence Forum Experiment

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H

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« Reply #30 on: October 06, 2017, 04:01:53 pm »
Anyone want to set me straight before I do something dumb ;)?

I just don't see why any of this is worth the effort, but maybe that's just me.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Sausuna

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« Reply #31 on: October 06, 2017, 04:25:04 pm »
I would give his books a solid B. The setting, action, and characters are terribly enjoyable. That said, for some reason it always gave me a sort of 'young adult adventure' feel, not sure why. And the main character is kind of a Mary Sue (as much as I loath the term).

I think I have enough A material I'd like to get to before I really dive too deep into the B material.  Unless, like I said, there is some compelling extenuating reason to.  Good isn't really all that attractive when great is just as available.
Oh, sure. I just meant to give my opinion more-so than convince you to read it. Thoughts of the author aside.

@Madness - I'd suggest against it, but it would probably generate interesting discussion. Like I said before, though. I think the hypothesis has a lot of variables to account for.

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« Reply #32 on: October 06, 2017, 04:32:42 pm »
Oh, sure. I just meant to give my opinion more-so than convince you to read it. Thoughts of the author aside.

That was my impression too, so I'm thankful for your perspective.  I'm lucky if I can read a book a month, so I have to be selective now-a-days.

@Madness - I'd suggest against it, but it would probably generate interesting discussion. Like I said before, though. I think the hypothesis has a lot of variables to account for.

I'd even venture to postulate that the hypothesis is almost impossible to prove in either direction without some massive study that would cost more to preform than the sum total of our GDP and possibly not even be possible without compounding variables spoiling the whole thing.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #33 on: October 06, 2017, 06:28:13 pm »
Quote from:  H
I think I have enough A material I'd like to get to before I really dive too deep into the B material.  Unless, like I said, there is some compelling extenuating reason to.  Good isn't really all that attractive when great is just as available.

So where is all this GRRAT stuff you have to read? I'm speaking Fantasy/sci-fi, I find a lot of Good in the genre, not a whole lot of great. I've read 27 books this year and I'd say, excluding TSA re-read and TUC, Senlin Ascends & Arm of the Sphinx by Josiah Bancroft has been the best in the fantasy genre. But it's nowhere near TSA.

I've recently got into sci-fi, so The Morning Star series, The Expanse, Dune and now I'm in the Gap Cycle series has been a great change of pace.

But, where this great stuff, and I'm not being a smartass H. I just can't find nothing that strikes me like Bakker or GRRM up until the last two books.WHERE IS IT? I WANT IT? I CAN SMELL THE VIRGIN CUNNY OF ITS BINDER, BUT CANNOT LICATE THEM? (LOL, sorry MRA dragon joke, you know, because that's our type of thing and all).
Lead me, anyone, to the great books of my favorite genre.

I will give Blood Meridian a go, here soon. I mean I read plenty that I like and even think is good. He'll, I think when you have enough balls to put pen to paper and get published its at least somewhat entertaining. I've read a whole lot of Meh this year, but enjoyed certain aspects of each series and books. And I have time to read, so just show me where these great books are.
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« Reply #34 on: October 06, 2017, 06:57:06 pm »
Guys/gals, you know, I love you all and with respect ... just don't know how to jump in without insulting you'all ... but no other way to put it, his books are mediocre and that's being kind. Someone gave it a B, young adult fiction feel, that's because it's not good. I genuinely think if I gave it all I got, I could cook up something about this level of quality ( and I consider myself to be a poor writer with no interest in getting better at this age ). It has no detail or dimension, it's not clever or surprising or suspenseful. Are you sure you're simply not accepting the reality that there ARE great writers and then there's everybody else? Given a world population of 7 billion, that leaves an impressive amount of great writing available to us. You want to read this guy, fine, you're an adult, don't need to explain yourself to me. But his response to you is a favor ... "beat it, you're giving me too much credit, my books suck". At least he has the wherewithal/introspection to not give his fans respect given he's unworthy of it himself ( at least toward the quality of his writing ). Prince of Thorns was toilet reading at best. You guys remind me of sports fans here in the US looking for the next Michael Jordan or next Tiger Woods - there ain't no other Bakker and that's that. There's other really good stuff out there, so I heed H's wise words ( paraphrasing ), given so much A quality out there, I don't waste my life on the crap. I was keeping out of this, since it's not my business what anyone likes, but it's gone on for 3 pages now, so I'm here to tell ya, it simply does not matter, is of no consequence whatsoever if this guy loves or hates or ignores you, Madness et al ... don’t mistake creative intensity with quality, it ain’t there with this; there’s a difference between crafting a story and making shit up. I can make up all kinds of murderous shit for ya and wont' charge you a penny for it. And yes, Madness, you can create a blog for my "work" along with all of the toilet analytics.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 06:59:01 pm by TaoHorror »
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MSJ

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« Reply #35 on: October 06, 2017, 09:57:18 pm »
@Tao

Now thats just your opinion. He is a decent writer and has decent stories. Nothing groundbreaking, but not much out there is. I'd give him a B, on that scale. Red Queens War was definitely better then THe Broken Empire trilogy. I thought it best how they tied together and there was plenty enough to keep you interested. A decent read. He isn't horrible and his sales is a testament to that fact. If Banker sold like Lawrence we would be getting a TSA book, year in year out. But, you're correct, he isn't a great author. Seems about average to me, little above. I like Abercrombie a whole lot better.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TaoHorror

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« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2017, 02:27:31 am »
@Tao

Now thats just your opinion. He is a decent writer and has decent stories. Nothing groundbreaking, but not much out there is. I'd give him a B, on that scale. Red Queens War was definitely better then THe Broken Empire trilogy. I thought it best how they tied together and there was plenty enough to keep you interested. A decent read. He isn't horrible and his sales is a testament to that fact. If Banker sold like Lawrence we would be getting a TSA book, year in year out. But, you're correct, he isn't a great author. Seems about average to me, little above. I like Abercrombie a whole lot better.

I was being colorful for entertainment purposes - guess I failed, again! It was my twisted way of having Madness's back in his interaction with ML, don't mess with my friends! And to be clear ( think I sorta made the point in the mess that was my post ), I'm not insulting anyone who likes him - I'm sure there are plenty of reads I love that most think is trash, taste is taste. I did find POT boring without dimension or life, but that's me.

Shit, he sells more than Bakker? That's a crime.

Abercrombie is awesome, love his books.
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« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2017, 03:14:04 pm »
@ Tao

You never offended me. Was just giving my opinion on the books. Once you've read Bakker the rest all feels YA. That's wy I asked H where all these GREAT books are. :)
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2017, 04:03:53 pm »
Yeah, Bakker has spoiled us. But someone will come along eventually to wow again - that and he's still with us and appears interested in writing more. I was sad when Herbert died thinking all the cool scifi died with him - then Simmons came along and cured me of that.
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« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2017, 05:04:46 pm »
Anyone want to set me straight before I do something dumb ;)?

I just don't see why any of this is worth the effort, but maybe that's just me.

It's minimal effort to me and I said straight up to Wilshire that it was an product of my being frustrated and bored about my lack of time in real life.

I thought I was doing something productive. Now I'm just curious as to why someone so data-driven in his commentary on anything regarding the state of writing, publishing, and fiction is so flippant in his dismissal of a fan forum.

@Madness - I'd suggest against it, but it would probably generate interesting discussion. Like I said before, though. I think the hypothesis has a lot of variables to account for.

Please, freestyle with me. I'm not sure I can look at this situation thus far and isolate hypotheses or account for relevant variables.

I'm lucky if I can read a book a month, so I have to be selective now-a-days.

Fuck, I feel you, H.

I'd even venture to postulate that the hypothesis is almost impossible to prove in either direction without some massive study that would cost more to preform than the sum total of our GDP and possibly not even be possible without compounding variables spoiling the whole thing.

Yeah, I'm just interested in generating data. As Wilshire noted earlier this thread, I was very surprised by Lawrence's response, especially as such an obviously popular and accessible author and one who usually always bring data to any discussion he's involved in.

Shit, he sells more than Bakker? That's a crime.

By a long shot. Lawrence recently wrote a post on his blog asserting based on Goodreads data that he sells a thousand books a day.

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Sausuna

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« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2017, 01:45:06 pm »
@Madness - I'd suggest against it, but it would probably generate interesting discussion. Like I said before, though. I think the hypothesis has a lot of variables to account for.

Please, freestyle with me. I'm not sure I can look at this situation thus far and isolate hypotheses or account for relevant variables.
Well, I assume the point of contention is 'does a fan forum help book sales, harm books sales, or have no effect?' So one would probably want to look at book sales for an author before, during, and maybe even after (less important, probably) having a fan site. And then compare this to sale trends for other authors.

But there are a lot of other reasons a book may or may not sell. I'm hardly a researcher or economist, but I imagine below might be a few things to account for.
- General economic trends. I would think entertainment spending would be lower during bad periods.
- Prominence of the author. If an author has prior success, I assume it increases future sales, which might need to be looked at when comparing to other authors and prior sales.
- Marketing and publicity. I assume different publishers have different marketing ability to some degree. As well as the authors own willingness to travel for tours or reach out to people on the internet.
- Book price. I'm not entirely sure how such a thing is determined, but the price of hardback and paperback varies both between them and between individual books. Could influence sales a tad. One might be able to add something like cover art in here too, but that's getting a bit more into why people buy specific books.
- Nearby releases. If George R.R. Martin is releasing a book, it could affect sales of one author, given prominence of other interests in the genre.
- Accessibility of the fan site. Since I think Lawrence mentioned it, is it a subreddit, is the site linked often? Does it come up high on Google results? If people see the site as often as they might see other mentions, it'd probably have diminishing returns.

Anyway, I think these various things could affect sales and/or analyzing the relevant data trends to isolate effects.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2017, 02:56:24 pm »
I think fan forums, et al do drive sales in that they spread awareness and provide a place for fans to network and do fun stuff together like discuss the work, trying to figure it out, etc. I've purchased books based on recommendations in forums. I think the problem Bakker is facing is the very thing that could help sales is something he loathes, not just for himself, but as societal criticism - the drive to satisfy/to enjoy reduces the "learning", waters down the "sharing" the author is driving for. Popularizing cheapens the intellect, for both reader and author - or, at least I think that's what he's getting at ( ref: his unwillingness to set up a support site - forget what you call it, were people can sign up to be benefactors for an author/artist so they can afford to continue their work ).
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« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2017, 08:37:09 pm »
Anyway, I think these various things could affect sales and/or analyzing the relevant data trends to isolate effects.

Thanks for obliging me, Sausuna :).

I have, in fact, created an r/fantasy thread after deliberating on it over the weekend. Lawrence has since deleted his blog post, though not responded on r/fantasy and a mutual friend has passed along a vaguely threatening private message on Lawrence's behalf.

As I said to Redeagl earlier, I'm fairly sure this is one of those issues that frequently arise in my life where I come off insensate, dispassionate, or obtuse, highlighting once again that I do not think like other people.

As far as I'm concerned, an attempt at a fan forum for Lawrence is dead in the water - given that we still have five members including Redeagl, Knee That Bends, and myself - as after TPB and Pat's Fantasy Hotlist linked SA we had a couple hundred registrations and Lawrence's fandom certainly exceeds Bakker's by a wide margin. I'm just interested in the question of how fan forums impact an author's sales.

I think fan forums, et al do drive sales in that they spread awareness and provide a place for fans to network and do fun stuff together like discuss the work, trying to figure it out, etc. I've purchased books based on recommendations in forums. I think the problem Bakker is facing is the very thing that could help sales is something he loathes, not just for himself, but as societal criticism - the drive to satisfy/to enjoy reduces the "learning", waters down the "sharing" the author is driving for. Popularizing cheapens the intellect, for both reader and author - or, at least I think that's what he's getting at ( ref: his unwillingness to set up a support site - forget what you call it, were people can sign up to be benefactors for an author/artist so they can afford to continue their work ).

Bakker has problems unique to himself ;).
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Redeagl

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« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2017, 10:19:50 am »
The Reddit thread have blown up. Lol.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2017, 10:21:27 am by Redeagl »
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« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2017, 04:29:56 pm »
Indeed.
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