For those of you who hated the ending …

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MSJ

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« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2017, 12:43:44 am »
Quote from:  Bolivar
I've spent too much time reading these books to take a remark like, "the people who don't like it are the ones who get it!" as anything other than rationalization.

Seems a bit of a cop out doesn't it?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2017, 01:55:51 pm »
I've spent too much time reading these books to take a remark like, "the people who don't like it are the ones who get it!" as anything other than rationalization.
They might get the book, but not his comment :P . Classic Bakker to explain something with a statement even more confusing.

If I had to guess, I'd say the reason behind that statement is closer to the idea that his intention wasn't to write a feel good story about love conquering evil, so those that 'get it' are the people who read the story and are disturbed by the picture painted, as it was intended to show something about human nature (or whatever it was exactly he was intending to show/do/warn - I don't claim to know).

So whatever 'the point' was/is, its supposed to be disturbing rather than comforting. In the same way, I would again guess, that Neuropath is supposed to be disturbing, as something of a warning of what might happen, so that those who 'get it' are disturbed... Maybe?

That's what I can come up with, because I really doubt he specifically spent 25 years writing a book/series so that people 'wouldn't like it'. If that was really his goal, he could have done a much worse job, and saved himself a lot of time.

Anyway, see here the dangers of overly terse/short statements. It forces people to come up with their own explanations for your words, which leads to people just confirming their own biases and invariably will lead to more confusion and other undesirable results. I think Bakker fails to understand that his words online have an impact, and this persona of overly cagey Mr. Mysterioso doesn't serve him well, and never has. IMO, probably best he stops appearing online if this is the kind of stuff he chooses to put out there.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2017, 02:18:15 pm by Wilshire »
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Bolivar

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« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2018, 06:26:59 am »
I don't think disappointed readers were taking issue with the dark or tragic tone, since they probably wouldn't have made it this far if that were the case. Speaking for myself, it feels like I was waiting for a payoff that never came. The story abruptly ending with the No-God's resumption wasn't satisfying to me, it was expected and derivative of what I've already seen in Akka's dreams. For the Mangeacca to be long gone, the Consult leadership already subjugated, and just more Sranc, Bashrag and Wracu at Golgotterath, it was too much stuff I had already read before and none of the surprises I had been anticipating. I really didn't like that we saw more of the Ark in the Thousandfold Thought than we did in the entry titled "The Unholy Consult."

This isn't about subverting the audience's expectations, which I know is something Bakker set out to do. While the quality of writing is much higher in The Aspect Emperor, the story structure and pacing does not live up to what he accomplished with The Prince of Nothing. Every novel had an insane stand-alone story. Every main character was a completely different person at the end of each book from who they were when they started. Every chapter is momentous for the overarching plot. Assumptions you had beforehand were completely blown away. These books instead felt like they had a lot of filler and were clearly incomplete fragments of a single narrative. The Unholy Consult really had to make up for that dissatisfaction with a solid and original resolution it couldn't afford to end in essentially the same fashion the preceding novels did. Instead, saw more of the same and there are plenty of plot threads left dangling.

Wilshire

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« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2018, 01:45:20 pm »
I'm not going to try to argue you out of your opinion, and I don't begrudge the fact that you didn't like it. Just thought I'd start off with that.

I don't think disappointed readers were taking issue with the dark or tragic tone
I'd not try and put everyone in the same box. I definetly see a lot of people who did take issue with the fact that it didn't have a happier ending, which I find extremely surprising for the same reason you metioned - they made it this far, what did they expect?


Speaking for myself, it feels like I was waiting for a payoff that never came.
This is what most people say, but there are plenty of "because reason X". Plenty of people disappointed and each of them a different reason


The story abruptly ending with the No-God's resumption wasn't satisfying to me, it was expected and derivative of what I've already seen in Akka's dreams. For the Mangeacca to be long gone, the Consult leadership already subjugated, and just more Sranc, Bashrag and Wracu at Golgotterath, it was too much stuff I had already read before and none of the surprises I had been anticipating. I really didn't like that we saw more of the Ark in the Thousandfold Thought than we did in the entry titled "The Unholy Consult."
That certainly does seem to be what happened.
I do think it would have been odd for a bunch of new monsters to have been introduced right at the end, for the same reason that the Dunyain being in control seemed strange - there was little foreshadowing.

This isn't about subverting the audience's expectations, which I know is something Bakker set out to do.
Just to clarify "this isn't about" refers to your dislike of the ending, not the subverting expectation itself.


While the quality of writing is much higher in The Aspect Emperor, the story structure and pacing does not live up to what he accomplished with The Prince of Nothing. Every novel had an insane stand-alone story. Every main character was a completely different person at the end of each book from who they were when they started. Every chapter is momentous for the overarching plot. Assumptions you had beforehand were completely blown away. These books instead felt like they had a lot of filler and were clearly incomplete fragments of a single narrative. The Unholy Consult really had to make up for that dissatisfaction with a solid and original resolution it couldn't afford to end in essentially the same fashion the preceding novels did. Instead, saw more of the same and there are plenty of plot threads left dangling.
I didn't see that big of a difference between PoN and TAE, plot wise. They are actually very well mirrored, imo, and TTT/TUC end very similarly.

Though, for the time spent on each (ignoring the "20+ years" spent on TDTCB), I think the pacing of TAE wasn't as masterful, which is strange given how much time he spent on it. I honestly think he just spent too much time  writing, editing, and rewriting, to the point that the story did suffer.

FWIW, though I do see now that it was wishful thinking, I was hoping for a lot more 'answers'. I thought there'd be a lot more world-building, rather than new mysteries. I had similar complaints with Malazan's final book Crippled God. At some point it is a story, and it does need to end, and the reader is no longer interested in new mysteries - they want the story completed.

Yes, there is another series after TAE, but to be hoping for answers is probably unwise. TTT ended like TUC, and to think that TNG will end otherwise is folly. These are the books Bakker is writing.
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« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2018, 06:54:35 pm »
I'm happy to see you back 'round, regardless, Bolivar ;).
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Bolivar

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« Reply #20 on: January 10, 2018, 03:59:21 pm »
Always good to be back!

Even if I did just get completely taken down by Wilshire

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Wilshire

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« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2018, 04:05:29 pm »
Always good to be back!

Even if I did just get completely taken down by Wilshire

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:'( .
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« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2018, 11:07:44 pm »
I blame myself. I haven't been here a lot over the past couple months and Wilshire's had to do double time with his conversational martial artistry around here in my absence ;). He's at peak fitness.
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