Did Kellhus find Oblivion?

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profgrape

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« on: September 27, 2017, 03:23:13 pm »
In response to MSJ's question about Kellhus' fate (is he the other Decapitant, in the Outside, etc), Bakker relied with:

Quote
Well, Ajokli can't find him.

This got me thinking about the scene where a Ciphrang encounters a soul-less Nonman.  I interpreted this as confirming that Nonmen could in fact find Oblivion and therefore, avoid damnation.  But while this is interesting in a world-building sense, it bothered me that it didn't seem to have any underlying purpose to the narrative.  After all these years, we know that Bakker is very deliberate about these little tibits. 

What if the reason Ajokli can't find Kellhus is that Kellhus found Oblivion?  Given that he can wield sorcery without leaving a Mark (levitation), it would't be such a stretch to imagine that he'd found a way to hide his soul in the Outside. 

Make no mistake, I would *way* prefer for Kellhus to be stuck in the Decapitant on his salt-statue's waist, or better yet, be in the Decapitant sent to Zeum.  But maybe he just employed a tried-and-true Nonmen method to escape damnation?

Madness

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« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2017, 03:29:17 pm »
In response to MSJ's question about Kellhus' fate (is he the other Decapitant, in the Outside, etc), Bakker relied with:

Quote
Well, Ajokli can't find him.

This got me thinking about the scene where a Ciphrang encounters a soul-less Nonman.  I interpreted this as confirming that Nonmen could in fact find Oblivion and therefore, avoid damnation.  But while this is interesting in a world-building sense, it bothered me that it didn't seem to have any underlying purpose to the narrative.  After all these years, we know that Bakker is very deliberate about these little tibits. 

What if the reason Ajokli can't find Kellhus is that Kellhus found Oblivion?  Given that he can wield sorcery without leaving a Mark (levitation), it would't be such a stretch to imagine that he'd found a way to hide his soul in the Outside. 

Make no mistake, I would *way* prefer for Kellhus to be stuck in the Decapitant on his salt-statue's waist, or better yet, be in the Decapitant sent to Zeum.  But maybe he just employed a tried-and-true Nonmen method to escape damnation?

+1 8)
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Woden

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« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2017, 03:58:06 pm »
But Bakker said that Kellhus is dead but not done. So it’s unlikely that he has found oblivion if he’s still a player.
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« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2017, 04:14:57 pm »
But Bakker said that Kellhus is dead but not done. So it’s unlikely that he has found oblivion if he’s still a player.

My cheeky "+1 8)" was only because profgrape and I were talking about it off-forum.

I'll plant my flag again at Bakker's quote meaning that Kellhus' machinations aren't yet played out. Kellhus is dead, dead, as far as I'm concerned.
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profgrape

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« Reply #4 on: September 27, 2017, 05:26:30 pm »
But Bakker said that Kellhus is dead but not done. So it’s unlikely that he has found oblivion if he’s still a player.

My cheeky "+1 8)" was only because profgrape and I were talking about it off-forum.

I'll plant my flag again at Bakker's quote meaning that Kellhus' machinations aren't yet played out. Kellhus is dead, dead, as far as I'm concerned.

As much as I hate agreeing with Madness, I agree with Madness; Kellhus might be off the board but the Thought is alive and well.

Sausuna

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« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2017, 05:31:28 pm »
It remains possible. I believe Bakker mentioned something about it before, but I can't recall. But the entire aspect of Oblivion, the God of Gods, and the Absolute still seem like the true calling of the Dunyain as part of their obtainable goal.

That said, I mentioned it in the other thread, if anyone could figure out another solution, it'd be Kellhus. Why settle for Oblivion if he could find another solution? Think of what we can intuit from other situations.
- We know soul trapping is a thing.
- Shae did it for a long time, it worked with the Amaloeus (SP - the Nonmen translating helmet), and arguably Seswatha managed.
- And Kellhus seemingly walked the Outside, whether or not he struck deals with them, having studied the Daimos.

It seems hard for me to believe he couldn't have managed something to stick around somehow to help.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2017, 01:52:49 am »
But Bakker said that Kellhus is dead but not done. So it’s unlikely that he has found oblivion if he’s still a player.

My cheeky "+1 8)" was only because profgrape and I were talking about it off-forum.

I'll plant my flag again at Bakker's quote meaning that Kellhus' machinations aren't yet played out. Kellhus is dead, dead, as far as I'm concerned.

As much as I hate agreeing with Madness, I agree with Madness; Kellhus might be off the board but the Thought is alive and well.

He may be dead - but what now with him? Is he food for the gods?
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Frail

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« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2017, 06:04:09 am »
But Bakker said that Kellhus is dead but not done. So it’s unlikely that he has found oblivion if he’s still a player.

My cheeky "+1 8)" was only because profgrape and I were talking about it off-forum.

I'll plant my flag again at Bakker's quote meaning that Kellhus' machinations aren't yet played out. Kellhus is dead, dead, as far as I'm concerned.

As much as I hate agreeing with Madness, I agree with Madness; Kellhus might be off the board but the Thought is alive and well.

He may be dead - but what now with him? Is he food for the gods?
kellhus will be eaten by the gods but have discovered a way to poison and impregnate them, from there he will burst out chestburster style and the gods will be hunted one by one by the true Hunger

Zealously

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« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2017, 07:32:41 am »
But Bakker said that Kellhus is dead but not done. So it’s unlikely that he has found oblivion if he’s still a player.

My cheeky "+1 8)" was only because profgrape and I were talking about it off-forum.

I'll plant my flag again at Bakker's quote meaning that Kellhus' machinations aren't yet played out. Kellhus is dead, dead, as far as I'm concerned.

As much as I hate agreeing with Madness, I agree with Madness; Kellhus might be off the board but the Thought is alive and well.

He may be dead - but what now with him? Is he food for the gods?
kellhus will be eaten by the gods but have discovered a way to poison and impregnate them, from there he will burst out chestburster style and the gods will be hunted one by one by the true Hunger

I don't care that this would dial up the series' absurdity scale to 17, I want it.

MSJ

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« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2017, 01:01:05 pm »
Quote from:  Tao
kellhus will be eaten by the gods but have discovered a way to poison and impregnate them, from there he will burst out chestburster style and the gods will be hunted one by one by the true Hunger.

I love this. Could be his way of rewriti g damnation. However unlikely it seems, I'd fucking love to see it.
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2017, 05:02:25 pm »
I don't think this is absurd. We read Kel's description of god/gods to Proyas and to me it ain't a reverent point of view. Kelhus hunting the gods would "fit" into Bakker's declaration he's dead, but ain't done response. WR's offering is as good as anybody's guess at this point; maybe laid out a bit simplistically, but the idea Kellhus's death poses "poison" to the gods is plausible to me.

If "he's dead, but not done", without rabbit-holing all possibilities, then he's a Ciphrang now ( likely trapped in the other decapitant head ). Being a Daimotic Sorcerer, this may not matter much to him and may be part of the plan ( or at least plan B if he doesn't survive the Gold Room, which he didn't ). Kellhus says he made "deals", take it he did something to earn more leverage/power/freedom in the Outside - that something could be TGO, some god ( 4 Horned? ) was happy to see the hell Kellhus sent them through, and the response to Kellhus's questioning on that was interesting, seemed vague to me, like the act of driving humanity so hard was satisfying to them in some way ( could be the base pleasure of it, sadism - this is hell we're talking about ).
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MSJ

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« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2017, 12:18:45 am »
Quote from:  Tao
Being a Daimotic Sorcerer, this may not matter much to him and may be part of the plan ( or at least plan B if he doesn't survive the Gold Room, which he didn't ). Kellhus says he made "deals",

Said the same exact thing in the other thread. If he truly is in the other decapitant, him being a Daimotic sorcerer will be enough, me thinks, to do what he needs doing. "Kellhus is dead, but not done.", is proof to me he still has a role to play.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2017, 01:03:37 am »
Oh, and no, Kellhus is no where near oblivion. He never tried hidding from the Gods and that what it takes to reach oblivion.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Sausuna

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« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2017, 12:45:56 pm »
Oh, and no, Kellhus is no where near oblivion. He never tried hidding from the Gods and that what it takes to reach oblivion.
Well, while I think it less likely, I also think it is a viable outcome. Partly due to my fascination with Oblivion and how it was furthered in TUC. I've said it several times, but I need to compile all the facts and re-examine The Survivor's scene where he gets high on someone else's supply. Anyway, that scene plus the fact that Elision is also the word later debased by the Dunyain to mean The Absolute? Might have some credit. Because even the Nonmen seemed to have an idea that Oblivion also might relate to The Absolute as they knew it.

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« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2017, 04:26:06 pm »
To clarify, I'm more taking it to mean that like... the Ministrate has a role to play in the Three Seas or something and that they have a sealed scroll from Kellhus reading "Break in case of Resumption."
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