Did Kellhus find Oblivion?

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solipsisticurge

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« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2017, 11:00:47 pm »
Kellhus, being keen of intellect, eschewed Oblivion in favor of Morrowind and Daggerfall, demonstrably superior games.

(Sorry, had to do it.)

I'm more or less in lockstep with Madness on this. I don't think Kellhus has achieved any super secret dodge which will render him, as-extant, relevant to the remainder of the series. He's a pillar of salt and that's that. However, the Th9ousandfold Thought had innumerable iterations on its way, and despite his arrogance, Kellhus would have had to be utterly myopic and stupid  to not lay the framework for secondary approaches given the potential for the Ordeal to fail.

The Ordeal was the Shortest Path; go to the Apocalypse machine and smash it until it can't Apocalypse no more. The Second Shortest Path, though, is infinitely preferable to "give up if I have to start over." I don't think Kellhus planned for his own death, but the failure of the Ordeal as a significant possibility would have been too present in his mind not to make additional plans in case of disaster. (There's also the question of what to do about damnation if the Ordeal did succeed, which I also doubt Kellhus spent no energy on.)
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BeardFisher-King

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« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2018, 03:04:03 am »

To clarify, I'm more taking it to mean that like... the Ministrate has a role to play in the Three Seas or something and that they have a sealed scroll from Kellhus reading "Break in case of Resumption."

I'm glad I found this thread. These posts encourage me. Madness, you killed it! Lmao!

Knowing RSB, though, if there was a sealed scroll reading "Break in case of Resumption", the first instruction would read "Find Proyas". Oops.
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« Reply #17 on: January 06, 2018, 03:34:14 am »
Well, what do we do with Bakker's comment, "Kellhus is dead...but not done...."?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TaoHorror

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« Reply #18 on: January 06, 2018, 04:15:59 am »
Well, what do we do with Bakker's comment, "Kellhus is dead...but not done...."?

Nothing.

I'm throwing in the towel on making sense of Bakker's responses - just too open-ended and vague. I take it he doesn't want to ruin the series for us and was available for questions to clarify what he intended us to already know ( although there's some bullshit with that as well with his comment that we missed something big, but not clarifying what it was ). Anything foretelling is not concrete given his next books are "discovery" for him and the opaqueness of his responses about the future of the story.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 04:18:36 am by TaoHorror »
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Francis Buck

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« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2018, 10:04:40 pm »
I don't think Kellhus found Oblivion, nor was he seeking it. I think Kellhus may well have been saved, possibly by Gilgaol, since only War and Birth can seize apparently (and Kellhus basically did nothing but wage war from the time he left Ishual up to his death). In addition, when he looked up at the Inverse Fire, he did say that he was already saved.

All that being said, I also think there's some difficulty in interpretation regarding the Gods and how humans can become their "vessel". I think it may be erroneous to imagine that possession by a God somehow "overrides" the actual individual being possessed. Rather, I think that being a vessel for a God is the result of someone acting/thinking in a way that aligns with the motivations of the character and the God equally.

Taking Cnaiur for example, who we know to be both a Ciphrang and ultimately a vessel for Ajokli -- his final scene and dialogue make sense regardless of whether you imagine it to be Ajokli or Cnaiur. The same sort of thing applies to Kellhus in the Golden Room, or even Psatma as Yatwer. When Kellhus returns to Momemn and confronts Psatma, he speaks to her and references her as if it were in fact just Yatwer (calling her his sister, the line about how "even eternity can be blind" or whatever). This also plays pretty well with the themes of souls "feeling in control" even then there's a clear puppet master -- be it a worldly one like a Dunyain, or the Cants of Compulsion, or being a Vessel for a God. Kellhus even points this out to Kelmomas in TUC when he mentions how Kelmomas can't distinguish between whether it's himself or Samarmas who is currently speaking/in control.

On a whole separate note, the nature of Ajokli is strange even according to what we know about the Gods. He is at times their adversary and also their companion. He has many, many dominions, including both murder and deception, game-playing, mischief, etc. Not to mention the symbolism of four Horns, Ajokli's claim that the Ark is "his place", the new glossary entry about the Ark being the Halved-Crown of Ajokli, etc...

I do think it's possible that Ajokli is, in fact, the God of Gods, or that Ajokli is Seswatha, or both (the idea of making a pact with the pit and attaining temporal power and so forth fits pretty well with what Seswatha seemingly is/does...but then the same could be said of Shaeonanra and Shauriatas).

Ultimately I think we just don't have enough information to really know yet. I mean look at the list of entities/God-like beings we currently have and who are seemingly all different from each other, while also sharing a number of qualities.

The World
The God of Gods
The Ark
The No-God
The Zero-God
The Meta-God
Ajokli
Seswatha
Shauriatas


That's a long list, and I'd be pretty surprised if there was not some degree of "collapsing" among the above entities, and it's just two or three different forces that are being interpreted differently by the characters, or perhaps are themselves different "stages" of the same force/entity.

If I had to guess, I would say that Shauriatas is the Will of the Ark, and that the Ark simply possesses whoever is at its helm, so to speak. Of course, given the blindness of souls to their own movements as I mentioned above, those possessed by the Ark/Shauriatas do not realize they are possessed.

The God of Gods is apparently blind to the No-God as much as anyone, and given that Ajokli seems to be blind to the No-God as well to some degree, there may be a correlation here.

The World seems to trump everything, and Bakker has described Earwa as a "self-moving world" -- and I also think that this is the sentient entity that is the Judging Eye, or the Zero-God.

The Meta-God, who has only been mentioned a single time, is IMO either a different term for the World, or perhaps a term for Seswatha (and, again, I could see the Meta-God being the World being Seswatha).

Then again, the No-God itself seems to genuinely be the Absolute, given that it stands "outside the outside" and even the God of Gods cannot see it, which would ALSO fit in with the title "Meta-God" (a God that is above the God of Gods).

In conclusion, I have no idea.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2018, 10:09:17 pm by Athorn "FB" Gallizur »

TaoHorror

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« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2018, 11:41:52 pm »
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Dora Vee

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« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2018, 03:19:51 am »
I thought that there were other Gods who can save souls.

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Francis Buck

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« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2018, 06:03:31 am »
I thought that there were other Gods who can save souls.

My assumption on this is that while other Gods are able to save souls, Gilgaol and Yatwer can trump any of them, thus "saving" (or "seizing") whatever souls they wish. This sort of makes sense given that Yatwer (birth, life) and Gilgaol (war, death) are at the top of the metaphysical foodchain, and serve as the ultimate gears of the cosmic engine that keeps the cycle of souls running -- the same cycle which the No-God is intended to interrupt.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2018, 12:21:26 pm »
My assumption on this is that while other Gods are able to save souls, Gilgaol and Yatwer can trump any of them, thus "saving" (or "seizing") whatever souls they wish.
This is not how I, personally, interpret it. We have too few instances of people being saved or explicitly going to Hell (and not, for example, being described as damned by the Judging Eye). It's not enough to construct a whole system that contradicts the universal belief that all Gods can save souls. So far, things people believe about the Gods seem to be largely confirmed. The Gods exist, have real power, have domains in the Outside, talk to their followers, interact with souls. That we only see 2 or 3 Gods acting doesn't mean that others are trumped by those 2 or 3.

That being said, I can see internal logic in the assumptions made above, but by itself it's insufficient to contradict the background provided by the series. However unverified and moot that background may be, it's in the books and also largely internally consistent.

Considering the instances of building upon this background (like proposing hierarchies of metaphysical forces), the assumptions in question may or may not be correct. It's not enough information indeed.

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« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2018, 03:11:58 pm »
I thought that there were other Gods who can save souls.

My assumption on this is that while other Gods are able to save souls, Gilgaol and Yatwer can trump any of them, thus "saving" (or "seizing") whatever souls they wish. This sort of makes sense given that Yatwer (birth, life) and Gilgaol (war, death) are at the top of the metaphysical foodchain, and serve as the ultimate gears of the cosmic engine that keeps the cycle of souls running -- the same cycle which the No-God is intended to interrupt.

This line of thought would seem to preclude that Kellhus couldn't (somehow) save his own soul.  I don't take that for granted.  Or, perhaps save isn't the right word.  Perhaps we could say that it is somewhat likely that Kellhus had a way to gird his soul from the clutches of that which would take it, in the case of his death?
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2018, 03:26:07 pm »
I thought that there were other Gods who can save souls.

My assumption on this is that while other Gods are able to save souls, Gilgaol and Yatwer can trump any of them, thus "saving" (or "seizing") whatever souls they wish. This sort of makes sense given that Yatwer (birth, life) and Gilgaol (war, death) are at the top of the metaphysical foodchain, and serve as the ultimate gears of the cosmic engine that keeps the cycle of souls running -- the same cycle which the No-God is intended to interrupt.

This line of thought would seem to preclude that Kellhus couldn't (somehow) save his own soul.  I don't take that for granted.  Or, perhaps save isn't the right word.  Perhaps we could say that it is somewhat likely that Kellhus had a way to gird his soul from the clutches of that which would take it, in the case of his death?

Taking us back to the Oblivion points - did Kellhus find it, is attaining Oblivion the only way to circumvent damnation, did he save himself in the eyes of a god(s) ... we don't know.
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