Achamian as the most powerful sorcerer left alive in the Three Seas.

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MSJ

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« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2017, 04:48:49 pm »
Well, we know from the Sagas the there was only stillbirths during the rise of the No-God. Now, we have to take Bakkers comments regarding this subject. That when the Inchies have the Nonmen the inoculation, they discovered the side effect of the womb-plague on accident. That in turn they used it as a side effect of the No GOd. So, it might not be the shutting of souls from TNG rise the creates the stillbirth, but What they learned from the inoculation. Just throwi my that out there.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2017, 04:58:59 pm »
Well, we know from the Sagas the there was only stillbirths during the rise of the No-God. Now, we have to take Bakkers comments regarding this subject. That when the Inchies have the Nonmen the inoculation, they discovered the side effect of the womb-plague on accident. That in turn they used it as a side effect of the No GOd. So, it might not be the shutting of souls from TNG rise the creates the stillbirth, but What they learned from the inoculation. Just throwi my that out there.

Well, partially, yeah, the Womb-Plague was a happy accident, in the sense that they didn't know in developing the Inoculation that it would sterilize the population.  What they realized though was that this partially fulfilled a role the No-God would play.  So, while I had read Bakker's comment differently at first, the Womb-Plague is totally independent of the No-God, really, just a way to crudely approximate it's effect.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2017, 05:01:50 pm »
But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.

Plausible, but we don't know what happens once the world is closed.

Sure, souls aren't needed, but the birth of souled being might be contingent upon the Cycle of Souls.  So, the No-God stopping the Cycle could be why there were no births during it's presence.  Once the world is shut, we don't know, but if the end result is like the means, it could be that no souled beings will ever be born alive.

But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.
As H says, that's possible. But it seems unlikely to me.

Can living beings exist without souls? Sure, we have skin-spies and scranc, for instance. Can men be born without souls? I've seen no evidence of that so far. Seemingly all men have been born with souls and can even live without a proper body (the Amoilas, Shae's strange contraption, somewhat of Malowebi in the Decapitant, and so on). But assuming sealing the world breaks the cycle of souls, it would make more sense to me that men simply cannot make more men, not that birth would continue in a new way. Especially given the effect of the No-God.
Keep in mind that Eärwan metaphysics are strange and arbitrary and dependent on Divine wills. Breaking the cycle of souls -> no more humans can be born because humans are ensouled beings in the World, but after the Outside is shut, and the Gods cease to exist (in a sense, as they have never existed in the first place), there's no such thing as a soul anymore.
It also doesn't make sense from a story-telling perspective since the World being shut is supposed to be analogous to our own crash-space.

H

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« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2017, 05:05:58 pm »
Keep in mind that Eärwan metaphysics are strange and arbitrary and dependent on Divine wills. Breaking the cycle of souls -> no more humans can be born because humans are ensouled beings in the World, but after the Outside is shut, and the Gods cease to exist (in a sense, as they have never existed in the first place), there's no such thing as a soul anymore.
It also doesn't make sense from a story-telling perspective since the World being shut is supposed to be analogous to our own crash-space.

That could be true, or that the allegory ends with our species ending, because meaningful beings have no place in a meaningless world.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2017, 05:09:46 pm »
Keep in mind that Eärwan metaphysics are strange and arbitrary and dependent on Divine wills. Breaking the cycle of souls -> no more humans can be born because humans are ensouled beings in the World, but after the Outside is shut, and the Gods cease to exist (in a sense, as they have never existed in the first place), there's no such thing as a soul anymore.
It also doesn't make sense from a story-telling perspective since the World being shut is supposed to be analogous to our own crash-space.

That could be true, or that the allegory ends with our species ending, because meaningful beings have no place in a meaningless world.
Unless you are willing/capable of reaching for the Absolute.

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« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2017, 05:21:12 pm »
But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.

Plausible, but we don't know what happens once the world is closed.

Sure, souls aren't needed, but the birth of souled being might be contingent upon the Cycle of Souls.  So, the No-God stopping the Cycle could be why there were no births during it's presence.  Once the world is shut, we don't know, but if the end result is like the means, it could be that no souled beings will ever be born alive.

But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.
As H says, that's possible. But it seems unlikely to me.

Can living beings exist without souls? Sure, we have skin-spies and scranc, for instance. Can men be born without souls? I've seen no evidence of that so far. Seemingly all men have been born with souls and can even live without a proper body (the Amoilas, Shae's strange contraption, somewhat of Malowebi in the Decapitant, and so on). But assuming sealing the world breaks the cycle of souls, it would make more sense to me that men simply cannot make more men, not that birth would continue in a new way. Especially given the effect of the No-God.
Keep in mind that Eärwan metaphysics are strange and arbitrary and dependent on Divine wills. Breaking the cycle of souls -> no more humans can be born because humans are ensouled beings in the World, but after the Outside is shut, and the Gods cease to exist (in a sense, as they have never existed in the first place), there's no such thing as a soul anymore.
It also doesn't make sense from a story-telling perspective since the World being shut is supposed to be analogous to our own crash-space.
I don't necessarily agree, unless you have more wording than I do. What gives you reason to think the Outside being shut means the Gods cease to exist? Several times Shutting the World has been referenced to as 'starving the Gods' and they would be 'howling at the gates'. Kellhus also described it as 'striking the Outside from the hip of the Real.' I take it to mean the Outside will be separated from the world, but not that the Outside will cease to exist entirely.

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« Reply #21 on: October 03, 2017, 05:30:18 pm »
Unless you are willing/capable of reaching for the Absolute.

If such a thing is even possible.  The fact that the Progenitors failed means it could be impossible.  Sort of like approaching absolute zero.  Close is possible, but nearly impossible to make that last jump.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

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« Reply #22 on: October 03, 2017, 06:07:09 pm »
But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.

Plausible, but we don't know what happens once the world is closed.

Sure, souls aren't needed, but the birth of souled being might be contingent upon the Cycle of Souls.  So, the No-God stopping the Cycle could be why there were no births during it's presence.  Once the world is shut, we don't know, but if the end result is like the means, it could be that no souled beings will ever be born alive.

But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.
As H says, that's possible. But it seems unlikely to me.

Can living beings exist without souls? Sure, we have skin-spies and scranc, for instance. Can men be born without souls? I've seen no evidence of that so far. Seemingly all men have been born with souls and can even live without a proper body (the Amoilas, Shae's strange contraption, somewhat of Malowebi in the Decapitant, and so on). But assuming sealing the world breaks the cycle of souls, it would make more sense to me that men simply cannot make more men, not that birth would continue in a new way. Especially given the effect of the No-God.
Keep in mind that Eärwan metaphysics are strange and arbitrary and dependent on Divine wills. Breaking the cycle of souls -> no more humans can be born because humans are ensouled beings in the World, but after the Outside is shut, and the Gods cease to exist (in a sense, as they have never existed in the first place), there's no such thing as a soul anymore.
It also doesn't make sense from a story-telling perspective since the World being shut is supposed to be analogous to our own crash-space.
I don't necessarily agree, unless you have more wording than I do. What gives you reason to think the Outside being shut means the Gods cease to exist? Several times Shutting the World has been referenced to as 'starving the Gods' and they would be 'howling at the gates'. Kellhus also described it as 'striking the Outside from the hip of the Real.' I take it to mean the Outside will be separated from the world, but not that the Outside will cease to exist entirely.
It's how I interpret things based on all kinds of things, such as the very wording in "starving" the Gods, but also the part about the No-God/Ark changing eternity,
Quote
The Gods are pretty much witless now. Imagine a virus erasing your memories and your meta-memories simultaneously. Theological Alzheimers.
etc. The way I see it, the World being shut would mean the Gods being erased.

Unless you are willing/capable of reaching for the Absolute.

If such a thing is even possible.  The fact that the Progenitors failed means it could be impossible.  Sort of like approaching absolute zero.  Close is possible, but nearly impossible to make that last jump.
I'm not sure they failed in the context of the books, but yes surely it's hard to see how we could ever escape the chains of causaility in this world.

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« Reply #23 on: October 03, 2017, 06:26:33 pm »
Tangent aside, on topic, I'll contest the opening post.

While Achamian will certainly be one of the most accomplished sorcerers remaining, I'm Team Serwa and really hope she has survived. Also, Achamian is the Prophetess' first Disciple. Achamian will follow Mimara and who knows what where she might lead.

Otherwise, given that TNG begins a few weeks after the disaster at Golgotterath and many of our previous principles are all with the retreating Ordeal, they aren't going to be doing much to coordinate and lead the remaining pockets of humanity.
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Sausuna

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« Reply #24 on: October 03, 2017, 06:32:53 pm »
But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.

Plausible, but we don't know what happens once the world is closed.

Sure, souls aren't needed, but the birth of souled being might be contingent upon the Cycle of Souls.  So, the No-God stopping the Cycle could be why there were no births during it's presence.  Once the world is shut, we don't know, but if the end result is like the means, it could be that no souled beings will ever be born alive.

But you don't need souls anymore after the world of shut. They're a part of Eärwan metaphysics. After the Outside has been shut you arrive in a world like our world.
As H says, that's possible. But it seems unlikely to me.

Can living beings exist without souls? Sure, we have skin-spies and scranc, for instance. Can men be born without souls? I've seen no evidence of that so far. Seemingly all men have been born with souls and can even live without a proper body (the Amoilas, Shae's strange contraption, somewhat of Malowebi in the Decapitant, and so on). But assuming sealing the world breaks the cycle of souls, it would make more sense to me that men simply cannot make more men, not that birth would continue in a new way. Especially given the effect of the No-God.
Keep in mind that Eärwan metaphysics are strange and arbitrary and dependent on Divine wills. Breaking the cycle of souls -> no more humans can be born because humans are ensouled beings in the World, but after the Outside is shut, and the Gods cease to exist (in a sense, as they have never existed in the first place), there's no such thing as a soul anymore.
It also doesn't make sense from a story-telling perspective since the World being shut is supposed to be analogous to our own crash-space.
I don't necessarily agree, unless you have more wording than I do. What gives you reason to think the Outside being shut means the Gods cease to exist? Several times Shutting the World has been referenced to as 'starving the Gods' and they would be 'howling at the gates'. Kellhus also described it as 'striking the Outside from the hip of the Real.' I take it to mean the Outside will be separated from the world, but not that the Outside will cease to exist entirely.
It's how I interpret things based on all kinds of things, such as the very wording in "starving" the Gods, but also the part about the No-God/Ark changing eternity,
Quote
The Gods are pretty much witless now. Imagine a virus erasing your memories and your meta-memories simultaneously. Theological Alzheimers.
etc. The way I see it, the World being shut would mean the Gods being erased.
But even that quote is only relating to the God's memories and awareness more than their existence. We might just have to agree to disagree, but the language seems to much more imply mere separation to me- striking from the hip, shutting the world, starving at the gates. None of these things imply destruction to me. Nor some sort of temporal change that would also rewrite the history of existence. This is even assuming on your part from where souls come from, which also seems equally unclear.

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« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2017, 12:56:34 am »
sorry if this is off topic a bit, but did i miss something? I thought that Sacarees was still very much alive at the end of TUC. I know theres a good chance he died in the chaos at golgotterath, but as far as we know hes still breathing. So, isnt sacarees the most powerful schoolman left? And thats assuming Serwa didnt make it, which I think is unlikely

MSJ

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« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2017, 09:36:56 am »
Quote from:  Swayal
sorry if this is off topic a bit, but did i miss something? I thought that Sacarees was still very much alive at the end of TUC. I know theres a good chance he died in the chaos at golgotterath, but as far as we know hes still breathing. So, isnt sacarees the most powerful schoolman left? And thats assuming Serwa didnt make it, which I think is unlikely.


I think he might be alive, but, Akka would utterly ruin him...utterly. I don't care if he uttered a Meta cant or not. Akka underestimates himself, along with everyone else. Akka will cause ruin!
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2017, 03:56:22 pm »
sorry if this is off topic a bit, but did i miss something? I thought that Sacarees was still very much alive at the end of TUC. I know theres a good chance he died in the chaos at golgotterath, but as far as we know hes still breathing. So, isnt sacarees the most powerful schoolman left? And thats assuming Serwa didnt make it, which I think is unlikely

I think he might be alive, but, Akka would utterly ruin him...utterly. I don't care if he uttered a Meta cant or not. Akka underestimates himself, along with everyone else. Akka will cause ruin!

Lol, right, Saccarees. Wow, I just noticed how awkward those two Es are.

Humanity in Earwa needs all the help it can get. But the retreating Ordeal probably isn't going to impact the defense of the Three Seas, given that TNG picks up weeks after TUC.
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« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2017, 04:03:32 pm »
sorry if this is off topic a bit, but did i miss something? I thought that Sacarees was still very much alive at the end of TUC. I know theres a good chance he died in the chaos at golgotterath, but as far as we know hes still breathing. So, isnt sacarees the most powerful schoolman left? And thats assuming Serwa didnt make it, which I think is unlikely

I think he might be alive, but, Akka would utterly ruin him...utterly. I don't care if he uttered a Meta cant or not. Akka underestimates himself, along with everyone else. Akka will cause ruin!

Lol, right, Saccarees. Wow, I just noticed how awkward those two Es are.

Humanity in Earwa needs all the help it can get. But the retreating Ordeal probably isn't going to impact the defense of the Three Seas, given that TNG picks up weeks after TUC.
Well, if Serwa survived, she can teleport (along with a couple others). And Saccarees theoretically can try. Otherwise, probably not. I doubt the others even have the means of survival for the journey back. Unless they grabbed some Quya corpses to burn.

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« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2017, 04:27:52 pm »
Well, if Serwa survived, she can teleport (along with a couple others). And Saccarees theoretically can try. Otherwise, probably not. I doubt the others even have the means of survival for the journey back. Unless they grabbed some Quya corpses to burn.

There is the possibility some of the Quya survived the Battle as well?
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