[TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations

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Madness

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« on: October 03, 2017, 06:19:20 pm »
A post by H in TNG subforum made me want to sound the Interval.

I know we've had versions of this thread already and, though I'm sure it'll inevitably come up, I'd like to approach this through the lens that Ajokli is acting on his own (Kellhus then is strictly unwitting victim).

There are a couple data points we can cite without even debating or attributing Kellhus' dialogue in the Golden Room to Ajokli.

- Firstly, we have Ajokli's momentary victory speech when he's gone full-on Ghost Rider God-Mode. He wants to be on Earwa, not in the Outside, and he'd like to create Hell on Earwa and "shovel souls into the furnaces of Hell" (badly paraphrasing).
- Secondly, We have the comment by the fifth Mutilated whose head Ajokli pops that Ajokli is making a play to hide from the Gods at Golgotterath (I find this further validated by my reading as after TUC I found the whole Momemn story line to be about the Gods hunting and trying to stop Ajokli, rather than Kellhus specifically).

Original tangent but please feel free to continue here without referencing the other thread - we've covered a lot of the same tangents in other threads but I'd like to entertain the particulars in this one now.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2017, 06:21:28 pm by Madness »
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MSJ

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« Reply #1 on: October 03, 2017, 06:32:30 pm »
Its the whole companion to the Gods, and after the what comes after determines what comes before, that has me intrigued. Is he a merged Kellhus or Cnauir into Ajokli? Man there is a quote on TGO from Cnauir about turning Earwa into a living he'll, hanging babies from trees and such. Very intriguing to me.

I do think thats why his power on Earwa is greater than hell. And, 100% agree Madness that Ajokli struck the pacts and was trying g to hide from the other Gods.

I did re-read the Golden Room section, I do not agree that that is Ajokli speaking the whole time. I made many notes and don't have time to quote at the moment but, I don't think Ajokli completely takes over til the very end. I will give you my quotes and post later though.

“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Sausuna

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« Reply #2 on: October 03, 2017, 07:04:51 pm »
I think it is worth noting the other reported facts we know about Ajokli.
Quote
Ajokli—The God of thievery and deception. Also known as the Four-Horned Brother. Though listed among the primary Gods in The Chronicle of the Tusk, there is no true Cult of Ajokli, but rather an informal network of devotees scattered across the great cities of the Three Seas. The lack of any organizing institutions has transformed the Cult into the skulking, criminal embodiment of its skulking, criminal Master. The high priests of the Cult, insofar as it possesses any, are its Narindar, the most deadly of the most deadly assassins.
Ajokli is oft mentioned in the secondary scriptures of the different Cults, sometimes as a mischievous companion of the Gods, other times as a cruel or malicious competitor. In the Mar’eddat, he is the faithless husband of Gierra. In the Book of Gods he is nothing less than the dread enemy of mankind, the one God too hungry to remain in the Outside. In the Book of Hintarates he is the same, but depleted for his endless grasping, and so reduced to craft and insinuation. The fractured image presented in the scriptures is expressed in the sheer number of names used to reference him or his work: the Trickster, the Thief, the Four-Horned Brother, the Bald-faced, the Grinning God, Immortal Malice, the Prince of Hate, the Rake, among others.
I find the bolded parts to fit very much with what happened in the Golden Room. He seemingly wanted to stalk the world with The Mutilated and glut himself on mankind.

Then we have the odd fact that some people have supposedly view Golgotteroth as associated with Ajokli.
Quote
If the Ark were a vessel from another planet, then it had to be constructed by the Inchoroi themselves, when plainly, given its boggling dimensions, only a God could have forged it. Given the evil, rapacious nature of the Inchoroi, the construction is typically attributed to Ajokli. Some even think the Incû-Holoinas comprises two of the fabled Four Horns attributed to the trickster God in the Tusk and elsewhere. Indeed, some Near Antique lays refer to the conspicuously golden vessel as the Halved Crown of Hate.
While some of these aspects seem unlikely given recent knowledge, they are still interesting bits and might hint an an actual association.

Then we have the odd confusion when referencing Gilgaol in the text and Ajokli. And whether Akka's dreams about the Celmoman prophecy hold any weight.

And lastly, whether this god is a separate entity, or somehow merged with aspects of Kellhus or Cnauir.

Honestly, the entire thing is a big kettle of fish to me. But wanted to throw this out there before I really solidified my thoughts on it's nature.

profgrape

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« Reply #3 on: October 03, 2017, 11:12:00 pm »
Yes, in retrospect, it seems likely that the Great Ordeal wasn't anything more than a contrivance to get Ajokli to the Golden Room so it could fully manifest.   

The only thing that gives me pause about this is that Ajokli is later able to manifest itself in Cnaiur.  Might be as simple as the fact that Kellhus was the most powerful being on the planet and therefore, the ideal host?

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« Reply #4 on: October 04, 2017, 05:27:12 pm »
I did re-read the Golden Room section, I do not agree that that is Ajokli speaking the whole time. I made many notes and don't have time to quote at the moment but, I don't think Ajokli completely takes over til the very end. I will give you my quotes and post later though.

Sweet :).

Then we have the odd confusion when referencing Gilgaol in the text and Ajokli. And whether Akka's dreams about the Celmoman prophecy hold any weight.

And lastly, whether this god is a separate entity, or somehow merged with aspects of Kellhus or Cnauir.

Honestly, the entire thing is a big kettle of fish to me. But wanted to throw this out there before I really solidified my thoughts on it's nature.

I mentioned in the Foreshadowing thread, I think, that the confusion with Gilgaol and Ajokli is an artifact of Bakker having been undecided which God would play Ajokli's role in TUC when beginning TAE.

Yes, in retrospect, it seems likely that the Great Ordeal wasn't anything more than a contrivance to get Ajokli to the Golden Room so it could fully manifest.   

The only thing that gives me pause about this is that Ajokli is later able to manifest itself in Cnaiur.  Might be as simple as the fact that Kellhus was the most powerful being on the planet and therefore, the ideal host?

I think Kellhus was the actual most Damned soul and Cnaiur was second most Damned. And thanks, Sausuna and profgrape, because now I have a concrete example of how far from the Ark Ajokli might infiltrate Damned individuals (or "walking Topoi") to enter Earwa - giving credence to the idea profgrape shared with me yesterday that Ajokli might have been speaking through Kellhus even further than the Golden Room.

Thanks for posting those quotes too, Sausuna.

And profgrape: "Yes, in retrospect, it seems likely that the Great Ordeal wasn't anything more than a contrivance to get Ajokli to the Golden Room so it could fully manifest." - Facking brilliant 8)!
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profgrape

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« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2017, 06:47:04 pm »
I think Kellhus was the actual most Damned soul and Cnaiur was second most Damned.
I like it!  And it also supports how Cnaiur resigns himself to lose to Kellhus before he takes his "last ride".

Tythus

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« Reply #6 on: October 04, 2017, 08:26:43 pm »
Yes, in retrospect, it seems likely that the Great Ordeal wasn't anything more than a contrivance to get Ajokli to the Golden Room so it could fully manifest.   

The only thing that gives me pause about this is that Ajokli is later able to manifest itself in Cnaiur.  Might be as simple as the fact that Kellhus was the most powerful being on the planet and therefore, the ideal host?

I hear people saying Ajokli manifested though Cnaiur alot, and I'm curious why people think that is? Is it because of the way the dialogue is delivered as he walked towards the No-God?

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #7 on: October 04, 2017, 08:50:29 pm »
I hear people saying Ajokli manifested though Cnaiur alot, and I'm curious why people think that is? Is it because of the way the dialogue is delivered as he walked towards the No-God?
It's mainly because of this quote:

Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", Chapter 20, "The Furnace Plain"
Naked and unarmed, Cnaiür urs Skiötha, the most-violent-of-all-men, strode laughing into the Horde of Mog-Pharau ...
And it parted ... not for the smoke steaming from his numberless swazond, nor for the crimson glow poisoning his turquoise eyes, nor even for the shadowy presentiment of four horns rising about his head.
The mention of four horns is the most important part pertaining to your question here.

Tythus

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« Reply #8 on: October 04, 2017, 08:56:02 pm »
I hear people saying Ajokli manifested though Cnaiur alot, and I'm curious why people think that is? Is it because of the way the dialogue is delivered as he walked towards the No-God?
It's mainly because of this quote:

Quote from: R. Scott Bakker, "The Unholy Consult", Chapter 20, "The Furnace Plain"
Naked and unarmed, Cnaiür urs Skiötha, the most-violent-of-all-men, strode laughing into the Horde of Mog-Pharau ...
And it parted ... not for the smoke steaming from his numberless swazond, nor for the crimson glow poisoning his turquoise eyes, nor even for the shadowy presentiment of four horns rising about his head.
The mention of four horns is the most important part pertaining to your question here.

Awww, ya thats pretty straight forwards. I should really give the last few chapters a re-read besides the Golden room scene, I flew threw the last few pages after Kellhus was salted.

Thanks for the response!

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #9 on: October 04, 2017, 09:32:59 pm »
You're welcome!

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« Reply #10 on: October 05, 2017, 11:26:29 am »
I haven't done a ton of research and I'm not all that overwhelmingly knowledgeable about this, but Ajokli as the "trickster god" and his desire to stalk Eärwa itself seem somewhat in line with "real" trickster gods from our own human history.  From Br'er Rabbit, to Anansi, to incarnations of coyotes and ravens, they are usually out in the world itself, not disembodied gods.  Yatwer never really seeks a presence in Eärwa, but Ajokli does.  Whether this is to outmaneuver the other gods, or just to mess with mortals or both is not clear though.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Sausuna

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« Reply #11 on: October 05, 2017, 12:15:04 pm »
I haven't done a ton of research and I'm not all that overwhelmingly knowledgeable about this, but Ajokli as the "trickster god" and his desire to stalk Eärwa itself seem somewhat in line with "real" trickster gods from our own human history.  From Br'er Rabbit, to Anansi, to incarnations of coyotes and ravens, they are usually out in the world itself, not disembodied gods.  Yatwer never really seeks a presence in Eärwa, but Ajokli does.  Whether this is to outmaneuver the other gods, or just to mess with mortals or both is not clear though.
I think the speech he gives, along with the glossary entry, give strong indication that he just wants more souls to eat. The only god whose hunger is too great to be contained to the Outside.

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« Reply #12 on: October 05, 2017, 01:08:26 pm »
I think the speech he gives, along with the glossary entry, give strong indication that he just wants more souls to eat. The only god whose hunger is too great to be contained to the Outside.

Or does he want to deny the other's their share while simultaneously growing his own?  Or, of course, both a great hunger and some level of "revenge?"
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

profgrape

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« Reply #13 on: October 05, 2017, 02:14:15 pm »
I think the speech he gives, along with the glossary entry, give strong indication that he just wants more souls to eat. The only god whose hunger is too great to be contained to the Outside.

Or does he want to deny the other's their share while simultaneously growing his own?  Or, of course, both a great hunger and some level of "revenge?"
I'm inclined to thing that it's mostly just a power grab.  The fact that Bakker hadn't decided whether it would be Gilgaol or Ajokli as late as TTT makes me think it's not a question of Ajokli's motivation specifically and more about what a God might want.

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« Reply #14 on: October 05, 2017, 04:28:53 pm »
Are Ajokli's character traits (so far as they have been known to humans) simply a reflection of the fact that he possessed Kellhus and briefly manifested in the world at Golgotterath? Has he always had some reflection of Kellhus within him? After all, time and cause / effect don't really apply.
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