[TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations

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Madness

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« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2017, 04:38:54 pm »
I haven't done a ton of research and I'm not all that overwhelmingly knowledgeable about this, but Ajokli as the "trickster god" and his desire to stalk Eärwa itself seem somewhat in line with "real" trickster gods from our own human history.  From Br'er Rabbit, to Anansi, to incarnations of coyotes and ravens, they are usually out in the world itself, not disembodied gods.  Yatwer never really seeks a presence in Eärwa, but Ajokli does.  Whether this is to outmaneuver the other gods, or just to mess with mortals or both is not clear though.

I'm almost positive that FB and I have talked about Trickster narratives a number of times across the forum, long preceding the revelations of TUC.
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« Reply #16 on: October 13, 2017, 05:07:19 pm »
So as per the other ongoing thread dissecting these and other matters.

In TGO, we have a Kellhus POV on the Vision/Voice telling Kellhus that it wars with the God and to "burn the fields to awaken the God" (bp). Later in TUC, Ajokli implies that he'll use the Mutilated to cull Earwa - which would serve the aforementioned "goal" from TGO.

Also, as I need to record this somewhere for myself, the move to create Ciphrang-Malowebi (and who knows how many other Ciphrang-Characters possibly in play) smacks of an Ajokli, rather than a Kellhus.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2017, 06:01:27 pm by Madness »
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Yellow

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« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2017, 05:46:41 pm »
So as per the other ongoing thread dissecting these and other matters.

In TGO, we have a Kellhus POV on the Vision/Voice telling Kellhus that it wars with the God and to "burn the fields to awaken the God."

Can you be more specific about that (I'm  assuming you're paraphrasing)? That wasn't my take on why the fields should be burned. To war against the God (who needs souls to sustain it) , not to wake it.
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Yellow

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« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2017, 05:48:29 pm »
Also, fwiw, I still don't think that was Ajokli. Too rational. Outside Kellhus fo sho.
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« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2017, 06:02:51 pm »
So as per the other ongoing thread dissecting these and other matters.

In TGO, we have a Kellhus POV on the Vision/Voice telling Kellhus that it wars with the God and to "burn the fields to awaken the God."

Can you be more specific about that (I'm  assuming you're paraphrasing)? That wasn't my take on why the fields should be burned. To war against the God (who needs souls to sustain it) , not to wake it.

I'll have to go digging. I have a couple boxes of books to go through since the move still. There's a sad chance - as I read the TGO draft like... seven times in the two years preceding publication - that it's not in the canon artifact.

Also, fwiw, I still don't think that was Ajokli. Too rational. Outside Kellhus fo sho.

That is a theory which a number of readers subscribed to following TGO's release.
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« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2017, 06:35:48 pm »
Yeah, and Bakker's comment on it neither confirmed nor denied it, imo. I'm never letting it go!
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2017, 07:32:27 pm »
So as per the other ongoing thread dissecting these and other matters.

In TGO, we have a Kellhus POV on the Vision/Voice telling Kellhus that it wars with the God and to "burn the fields to awaken the God."

Can you be more specific about that (I'm  assuming you're paraphrasing)? That wasn't my take on why the fields should be burned. To war against the God (who needs souls to sustain it) , not to wake it.

I'll have to go digging. I have a couple boxes of books to go through since the move still. There's a sad chance - as I read the TGO draft like... seven times in the two years preceding publication - that it's not in the canon artifact.

Also, fwiw, I still don't think that was Ajokli. Too rational. Outside Kellhus fo sho.

That is a theory which a number of readers subscribed to following TGO's release.
It's in the canon, I remember it too. Ajokli the Trickster...

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« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2017, 07:51:06 pm »
Why would Ajokli want to wake the God? Why would Ajokli want a war with the God? Outside Kellhus fo sho.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Duskweaver

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« Reply #23 on: October 15, 2017, 03:46:41 pm »
This the bit you're talking about?

The figure seems to perpetually sink for the constellations rising about him. He speaks, but his face cannot be seen.
I war not with Men, it says, but with the God.
"Yet no one but Men die," the Aspect-Emperor replies.
The fields must burn to drive Him forth from the Ground.
"But I tend the fields."
The dark figure stands beneath the tree, begins walking towards him. It seems the climbing stars should hook and carry him in the void, but he is like the truth of iron - impervious and immovable.
It stands before him, regards him - as it has so many times - with his face and his eyes. No halo gilds his leonine mane.
Then who better to burn them?
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 03:48:28 pm by Duskweaver »
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incuroi

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« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2017, 02:46:15 am »
i actually don't think the great ordeal was just a contrivance for ajokli. think on it! the ordeal is a feast unto itself, a host of the most damned souls the world has ever witness born of one dunyain's deceit. the whole ordeal is already a great meal for the four horned brother and he was about to feast on the rest of the world. the irony is that his avatar is a member of the tribe of 'truth'. the god that i think is being referenced is the no-god/ark/logos, all as the culmination of the absolute, if the field is burned then the no-god can't complete its function and read souls. greater too is that ajokli keeps cnair as a backup in case his plan goes awry which is why he refuses to join the counsult
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 02:48:51 am by incuroi »

H

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« Reply #25 on: October 20, 2017, 11:22:52 am »
Well, I think it stands to reason that Ajokli regards Kellhus (and the Golden Room) as a point of entrance into Eärwa.  From there, I don't know that was have sufficient evidence to say he didn't well want that he tells the DûnSult he does, that is, to remake Eärwa into his own personal Hell.  I think this serves him in that he'd control the "granary" and so plausibly be able to war with any and all of the gods at once.

I think the Ordeal is completely Kellhus' idea, in the sense that it is the culmination of the Thousandfold Thought.  As we learn from Serwe's fight with Skuthula, the plan was for the Ordeal to fully breech the Ark itself and so to not have Kellhus face the Golden Room alone.  For several reasons, this doesn't happen and as per Bakker himself, the Thought fails.

So, the Ordeal only serves Ajokli in the sense that it delivers Kellhus to the Golden Room, but I don't think it was part of a larger plan on his part.
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« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2017, 03:09:09 pm »
Quote from: H
Well, I think it stands to reason that Ajokli regards Kellhus (and the Golden Room) as a point of entrance into Eärwa.  From there, I don't know that was have sufficient evidence to say he didn't well want that he tells the DûnSult he does, that is, to remake Eärwa into his own personal Hell.  I think this serves him in that he'd control the "granary" and so plausibly be able to war with any and all of the gods at once.

I think the Ordeal is completely Kellhus' idea, in the sense that it is the culmination of the Thousandfold Thought.  As we learn from Serwe's fight with Skuthula, the plan was for the Ordeal to fully breech the Ark itself and so to not have Kellhus face the Golden Room alone.  For several reasons, this doesn't happen and as per Bakker himself, the Thought fails.

So, the Ordeal only serves Ajokli in the sense that it delivers Kellhus to the Golden Room, but I don't think it was part of a larger plan on his part.

Yea, I have to agree. The Great Ordeal was part of the Thousandfold Thought and where the Thought failed was when Ajokli "forced" Kellhus into the Golden Room ahead of schedule. If they go in with Serwe, Kayutas and whoever else was included in the plans, I believe they succeed. This just was never going to happen, because obviously Kellhus didn't plan for Ajokli to take over as he did. I don't even think he counted on Ajokli giving him divine power. Bakker says that Kellhus is the most powerful sorcerer ever by the time they reach the Ark, that basically his sorcery is that of the Gods. We see it when he levitate with no Mark and there are other examples. He didn't need divine power, he already had it. This is why I don't buy that the Ordeal was just a way to get Ajokli in the Golden Room. Couldve went about it a ton of other ways of that was the case.

What still disappoints me is when Akka tells Kellhus about his dreams and when Akka doesn't divulge them, Kellhus just shrugs it off. So much about Akka facing Kellhus again that just drives me bat shit crazy. A wasted opportunity for some legendary scenes there.

So, how many people believe Cnaüir or Kellhus is Ajokli? I'm genuinely curious. Who and why do you believe that to be the case also?
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2017, 04:19:49 pm »
Bakker says that Kellhus is the most powerful sorcerer ever by the time they reach the Ark, that basically his sorcery is that of the Gods.
I don't remember Bakker saying it like that. He named Kellhus the strongest sorcerer (I kinda remember something like that, but can't recall the exact phrasing) before the Dunsult was introduced. Considering Kellhus being able to perform Markless sorcery - which in its described effects was always (?) very low key, - it wasn't even Bakker saying that, it got to us from the ZDC thread, as far as I can tell. I view it as a testament to Kellhus's knowledge, not his strength in battle (the latter, while formidable, still can be attributed to his mastery of the Metagnosis; generally his great feats of sorcery were still Marked, it's instances when there is no Mark that's specifically noted in the narrative).

Knowledge and strength are not the same and do not linearly translate into one another. The fact that Kellhus can do more things doesn't necessarily make him stronger in a confrontation. For all practical purposes many (if not all) of those things can just be tricks. For example, he preferred to continuously Translocate in his aerial battle with Aurang to the form of flying employed in the Last Whelming. Presumably because he could only rise a few feet above the ground, and that's basically it for that particular application of Markless sorcery.

TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2017, 09:34:37 pm »
Yea, I have to agree. The Great Ordeal was part of the Thousandfold Thought and where the Thought failed was when Ajokli "forced" Kellhus into the Golden Room ahead of schedule. If they go in with Serwe, Kayutas and whoever else was included in the plans, I believe they succeed. This just was never going to happen, because obviously Kellhus didn't plan for Ajokli to take over as he did. I don't even think he counted on Ajokli giving him divine power.

And in fact the whole thing is stymied when Ajokli stops his foot, trashing the insides of the Ark, and preventing Serwa etc getting into the Golden Room.  Ajokli taking over is surely not part of the plan
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TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2017, 09:36:42 pm »
To go back to the thread title, Ajokli is the trickster.  Maybe his motivation is that he finds the whole thing amusing.
Sez who?
Seswatha, that's who.