[TUC Spoilers] Ajokli's Motivations

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MSJ

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« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2017, 10:37:47 pm »
Quote from:  Smilerloki
I don't remember Bakker saying it like that. He named Kellhus the strongest sorcerer (I kinda remember something like that, but can't recall the exact phrasing) before the Dunsult was introduced. Considering Kellhus being able to perform Markless sorcery - which in its described effects was always (?) very low key, - it wasn't even Bakker saying that, it got to us from the ZDC thread, as far as I can tell. I view it as a testament to Kellhus's knowledge, not his strength in battle (the latter, while formidable, still can be attributed to his mastery of the Metagnosis; generally his great feats of sorcery were still Marked, it's instances when there is no Mark that's specifically noted in the narrative).

Knowledge and strength are not the same and do not linearly translate into one another. The fact that Kellhus can do more things doesn't necessarily make him stronger in a confrontation. For all practical purposes many (if not all) of those things can just be tricks. For example, he preferred to continuously Translocate in his aerial battle with Aurang to the form of flying employed in the Last Whelming. Presumably because he could only rise a few feet above the ground, and that's basically it for that particular application of Markless sorcery.

Oh, you sweet summer child...SMH.

Lol. No, but, Bakker says something along the lines of Kellhus has become so powerful that his sorcery is indistinguishable from the God. I'm not Madness, I am not the quote finder. And, knowledge is the root of all power, young SmilerLoki. There are other examples of Markless sorcery it's mentioned quite a few time throughout TUC. Anyhow, my point was that I do not believe Kellhus needed or considered having Ajokli's power.

See, if there was a "pact", I fully expect Kellhus to have done as much deceiving as Ajokli and probably accounted for Ajokli deceiving him, he just didn't know the manner. I am not totally sure at all that Kellhus knew Ajokli would play a major role, if any in the Golden Room. The dialogue doesn't back it up. "Father has entered the Golden Room by himself?", suggests that there was a plan. That plan never came to fruition because of Ajokli inhabiting Kellhus. Oh, and there is no doubt in my mind that Kellhus was the most powerful sorcerer to ever walk the Three-Seas, it's unquestionable in my mind.
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Practical Lobster

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« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2017, 11:36:29 pm »
Being the greatest sorcerer in the world is easily undone by one chorae or hell even a sniper shot from an Inchoroi weapon of light. Kellhus couldn't know what he was up against. Makes sense that he'd make a pact with the Pit. No other way to condition the ground of the Ark without surveying it.

Ajokli's assistance was, imo, one hundred percent necessary. Kellhus just assumed ultimate his reason would allow him to maintain control. And then maybe he could betray Ajokli later and run some sort of additional scheme with heads and poles and whatnot.

But it failed.

Anyhow, that's just my two cents, as someone who hasn't gotten so deep into the crazy speculation game and hasn't caught up on all the deeper theories y'all are pondering yet.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2017, 11:58:08 pm »
Lol. No, but, Bakker says something along the lines of Kellhus has become so powerful that his sorcery is indistinguishable from the God.
I don't remember that being about power at all. I took it to be about understanding.

And, knowledge is the root of all power, young SmilerLoki.
If only, on both counts.

An example of knowledge being more or less useless, at least for a while. There is a way to move a watercraft with an engine that has no moving parts (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive). It's even gotten a prototype some decades ago. Nonetheless it remains just a scientific peculiarity, because, all its advantages notwithstanding, it's simply not cost-effective. Our civilization is ripe with things like this. I extrapolate that on sorcery.

There are other examples of Markless sorcery it's mentioned quite a few time throughout TUC.
I am quite sure I don't remember all of it, but right now I'm under the impression it was all low key, the Last Whelming levitation-level.

Anyhow, my point was that I do not believe Kellhus needed or considered having Ajokli's power.
That's completely fine, I was mainly interested in your assessment of Kellhus's sorcerous power. Maybe you noticed something I didn't. I most certainly wouldn't be able to recall every instance of Markless sorcery at this time.

I am not totally sure at all that Kellhus knew Ajokli would play a major role, if any in the Golden Room. The dialogue doesn't back it up.
This utterly depends on how to read it, actually.

"Father has entered the Golden Room by himself?", suggests that there was a plan.
There might have been many plans and contingencies, including the one Serwa's referencing. For example, she didn't know about Proyas, while Kayutas did. It was a part of Kellhus's plans regardless.

Oh, and there is no doubt in my mind that Kellhus was the most powerful sorcerer to ever walk the Three-Seas, it's unquestionable in my mind.
The Three Seas, yes. Golgotterath, on the other hand... The Dunsult is a complete unknown in regards to their sorcerous proficiency. Kellhus has a significant edge on the world-born. That edge is gained through his Dunyain nature and training. The Dunsult have that as well, unlike any other characters in the series so far (save Koringhus).

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #33 on: October 22, 2017, 08:44:11 am »
Nah. Kellhus is a prodigy among the Dûnyain, his son is described as being the one closest to the Absolute ever. Definitely the most powerful sorcerer to ever walk Eärwa.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #34 on: October 22, 2017, 09:43:29 am »
Nah. Kellhus is a prodigy among the Dûnyain, his son is described as being the one closest to the Absolute ever. Definitely the most powerful sorcerer to ever walk Eärwa.
I feel I have a very different understanding of the word "prodigy". The fact that you can do some things better or faster than most people doesn't make you infallible or invincible, or even strictly more powerful. For example, very well-trained musicians would demonstrate the same level of proficiency as the prodigious ones, they just have to work harder to achieve it.

The matter of time put into something also has great significance. Prodigious abilities will not outweigh skills honed by dedicated training. Being a prodigy means picking things up fast, but it gives you no edge when your opponents can do everything you can, even if it took them somewhat longer to reach that level. So Kellhus being the most powerful sorcerer doesn't mean he can take on however many sorcerous Dunyain he wants. It doesn't mean he would necessarily be victorious against just one. I like his chances, but, as I mentioned earlier, two against one is generally considered bad odds. And prodigies are no exception to that rule. You might be able to hit harder than anyone else, but that wouldn't save you if your opponents all kill in one hit, too.

When you want to strictly beat someone, equip yourself with an unfair advantage. Bring a gun to a knife fight. Enter a contest of strength against a known weakling or a contest of speed against a one-legged man. Assault your enemies when they don't expect it and are unable to defend themselves. Use a weapon when they have none. Simply outnumber them. That's the way I see Ajokli in the Golden Room.

Madness

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« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2017, 06:19:16 pm »
This the bit you're talking about?

The figure seems to perpetually sink for the constellations rising about him. He speaks, but his face cannot be seen.
I war not with Men, it says, but with the God.
"Yet no one but Men die," the Aspect-Emperor replies.
The fields must burn to drive Him forth from the Ground.
"But I tend the fields."
The dark figure stands beneath the tree, begins walking towards him. It seems the climbing stars should hook and carry him in the void, but he is like the truth of iron - impervious and immovable.
It stands before him, regards him - as it has so many times - with his face and his eyes. No halo gilds his leonine mane.
Then who better to burn them?

Thanks, Duskweaver. Specifically, "I war not with Men, it says, but with the God." and "The fields must burn to drive Him forth from the Ground."

So, the Ordeal only serves Ajokli in the sense that it delivers Kellhus to the Golden Room, but I don't think it was part of a larger plan on his part.

I mentioned it before in this or the other thread but as per profgrape's suggestion, Ajokli has the benefit (?) of planning backwards. If the Ordeal serves to deliver Kellhus to the Golden Room, Ajokli has always been able to plan around that - among all those other unexplained subtle manipulations over the series (though, I'm not yet able to yet discount Anagke on a good many moments).

What still disappoints me is when Akka tells Kellhus about his dreams and when Akka doesn't divulge them, Kellhus just shrugs it off. So much about Akka facing Kellhus again that just drives me bat shit crazy. A wasted opportunity for some legendary scenes there.

I actually loved that scene. It's more for real that much other Fantasy.

More importantly, aside, Kellhus was interested in how and why Achamian's Dreams were changing... as am I.

So, how many people believe Cnaüir or Kellhus is Ajokli? I'm genuinely curious. Who and why do you believe that to be the case also?

Not I. They're Ajokli's doorways to Earwa, as per Bakker's comments on Walking-Topoi/Ciphrang-in-Life, the Most-Damned Soul and the Second-Most Damned (sorry, Inrilatas).

it wasn't even Bakker saying that, it got to us from the ZDC thread, as far as I can tell.

Well, your discussion with MSJ aside, I heard Bakker say it (or at least, I did later when listening to the recordings as I was not in the room) and will release the recording/transcript to that effect if/when I have permission to do so.

To go back to the thread title, Ajokli is the trickster.  Maybe his motivation is that he finds the whole thing amusing.

I like this, though I do wonder if the God of Gods, the Ultimate Shard/Ground, isn't really just a huge asshole (in Bakker's mind) for forcing existence in the first place and Ajokli isn't wrong to oppose him.

Though, as Ken Wilbur (and others) have said - maybe the Absolute just gets bored/terrified by having tea alone with itself. The Existential Scream could be real.

Being the greatest sorcerer in the world is easily undone by one chorae or hell even a sniper shot from an Inchoroi weapon of light. Kellhus couldn't know what he was up against. Makes sense that he'd make a pact with the Pit. No other way to condition the ground of the Ark without surveying it.

Ajokli's assistance was, imo, one hundred percent necessary. Kellhus just assumed ultimate his reason would allow him to maintain control. And then maybe he could betray Ajokli later and run some sort of additional scheme with heads and poles and whatnot.

But it failed.

Anyhow, that's just my two cents, as someone who hasn't gotten so deep into the crazy speculation game and hasn't caught up on all the deeper theories y'all are pondering yet.

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Practical Lobster. I like the monicker.

While I disagree with much of what you posted, I do like the bolded line. Too many readers seem to forget this. One intellect, two hands, however disproportionate they may be to his worldborn disciples.

Nah. Kellhus is a prodigy among the Dûnyain, his son is described as being the one closest to the Absolute ever. Definitely the most powerful sorcerer to ever walk Eärwa.
I feel I have a very different understanding of the word "prodigy". The fact that you can do some things better or faster than most people doesn't make you infallible or invincible, or even strictly more powerful. For example, very well-trained musicians would demonstrate the same level of proficiency as the prodigious ones, they just have to work harder to achieve it.

I do agree with SmilerLoki, Kellhus may very well have been overmatched by the Few Mutilated. And certainly, the Few Mutilated overmatch all other Earwan sorcerers unless the Mbimayu and their fetishes have any special significance - though, I suppose if Meppa were to take on one Mutilated directly, he might be able to do so.

And Serwa and Mimara, of course. The former might be able to hold her own with sorcery and the latter already having convinced Koringhus of the "Dunyain error."
« Last Edit: October 22, 2017, 06:23:32 pm by Madness »
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2017, 08:46:46 pm »
Well, your discussion with MSJ aside, I heard Bakker say it (or at least, I did later when listening to the recordings as I was not in the room) and will release the recording/transcript to that effect if/when I have permission to do so.
That would bring more clarity for sure!