The Sohonc and Mangaecca

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Wolfdrop

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« on: October 07, 2017, 05:09:17 pm »
I've just been reading some glossary entries and I'm sure this has been mentioned before but I'm not sure whether Bakker ever gave an answer.

If the Mangaecca was formed in 684 as a rival to the Sohonc, but the first Sohonc Grandmaster, Noshainrau, wasn't even born until some 400 years later.

Both Noshainrau and Gin'yursis are listed as tha founders of the Sohonc?

And Titirga is the second Grandmaster of the Sohonc and a pupil of Noshainrau?

Can someone help clear this up for me. I'm getting the impression that the Mangaecca was founded before the Sohonc and splintered from Gin'yursis' teaching. While he founded the Sohonc, Noshainrau was the first human Grandmaster, the position not being necessary or filled due to the presence of Gin'yursis, and thus Noshainrau incorrectly goes down in human history as the founder. Perhaps for religious reasons too, given the Tusks condemnation of Nonmen.

The dates have really thrown me and something just doesn't seem to add up. ???

[EDIT Madness: Title.]
« Last Edit: October 08, 2017, 02:27:55 pm by Madness »

Madness

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« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2017, 02:33:14 pm »
I figure it's a date mix-up but I yield to your knowledge of such things, Wolfdrop. You've proven particularly adept at noting discrepancies ;).

Another hiccup...

Quote from: Bakker, 2005
I actually haven't worked out anything much regarding the origins of nimil (which in my notes, I simply call 'Nonman steel'). The same goes for the motives of the Nonmen in sharing the Gnosis, though the first to do so (Gin'yursis, I think) was an exile, and so I suspect had personal motives.
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Wolfdrop

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« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2017, 05:09:16 pm »
Thanks Madness, I always feel like a bastard when I point these out. But if I didn't enjoy it so much I wouldn't dig so deep.

Bakker drives me insane trying to work out which is genuine oversights and which are intentional.

I'm operating under the impression that Noshainrau being the founder is the incorrect entry. Illustrious no doubt, but not the founder. If the Mangaecca was attempting to plunder Golgotterath since 777, I can't see a recently founded School of Sohonc giving them much pause.

Coupled with the fact that the footnotes from TFS aren't written by an in-universe character as is the case with the glossary, I'm more likely to believe their take on the founder.

Gin'yursis was likely in Cil-Aujas for many years after his Siqû duty was up and the Sohonc leadership had been passed over to Men.

Madness

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« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2017, 06:53:17 pm »
Lol, no worries.

- What makes you think the TFS footnotes aren't written as the Glossary is?
- Gin'yursis was supposedly exiled to Cil-Aujas, though I forget the narrative which sees him stuck there.
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« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2017, 12:54:56 pm »
Well, I'll dive more into this, but it isn't said that the Mangaecca were formed as rivals, rather that they were "ancient rivals."

It's not implausible that before Noshainrau, the Sohonc was more of a collective formed around Gin’yursis than an actual school.  Noshainrau may well have been the first man to teach another man the Gnosis and so that might mark the beginning of it being a School.
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Sausuna

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« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2017, 02:11:29 pm »
Per the entry on The Consult.

Quote
Though the Gnostic Schools of Sohonc and Mangaecca are referenced as Far Antique contemporaries, the Mangaecca is the older of the two schools, as well as the one possessing the deepest Nonman affiliations—affiliations which would prove instrumental to the School’s transformation into the Consult.
And as for the entry on the Mangaecca.
Quote
Mangaecca—The ancient rival to the School of Sohonc, and last of the four original Gnostic Schools. From its founding in 684 by Sos-Praniura (the greatest student of Gin’yursis), the School of Mangaecca had pursued a predatory ethos, regarding knowledge as the embodiment of power. Though this earned the School an ambiguous reputation, the Mangaecca managed to avoid running afoul of the High Gnostic Writ, the edict of Nincama-Telesser circumscribing sorcerous conduct.
So it was not formed as a rival. The Mangaecca came first under Sos-Praniura, a student of Gin’yursis in 684. And the Sohonc later (around 400 years later) under Noshainrau. But they were great rivals after that.



Another minor note, though, of an odd timeline error in the glossary.
Noshainrau the White (c. 1005—72)—The founding Grandmaster of the Sohonc.
Outhrata (c. 1060—c. 1115)—Famed Sohonc metaphysician (and eventual Grand-master) who became a central figure in the so-called Gnostic Renaissance.
Titirga (c. 1055—c. 1119)—The second Grandmaster of the Sohonc, childhood pupil of Noshainrau the White, and the famed Hero-Mage of Ûmerau, reputed to be the most powerful sorcerer, Man or Nonman, to have drawn breath.

Noshainrau is the founding Grandmaster. Titirga is the second Grandmaster. And Outhrata is somehow eventually a Grandmaster, even though he died before Titirga was murdered?

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« Reply #6 on: October 09, 2017, 02:21:30 pm »
Noshainrau is the founding Grandmaster. Titirga is the second Grandmaster. And Outhrata is somehow eventually a Grandmaster, even though he died before Titirga was murdered?

Well, IIRC, TFS makes no reference to Titirga being Grandmaster at the time, so it's possible he had vacated the position before his death.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Sausuna

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« Reply #7 on: October 09, 2017, 02:31:34 pm »
Noshainrau is the founding Grandmaster. Titirga is the second Grandmaster. And Outhrata is somehow eventually a Grandmaster, even though he died before Titirga was murdered?

Well, IIRC, TFS makes no reference to Titirga being Grandmaster at the time, so it's possible he had vacated the position before his death.
It refers to him as 'a master of the Sohonc'. And also uses the term Master in lieu of Grandmaster elsewhere for Shae. And in the glossary for The Consult again. "Though most Mandate scholars suspect Consult involvement in the death of the celebrated Sohonc Grandmaster Titirga some time around 1119," Technically possible, but it seems odd, given they could have just had Outhrata be later in the timeline, given his lack of actual involvement in anything.

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« Reply #8 on: October 09, 2017, 03:08:23 pm »
It refers to him as 'a master of the Sohonc'. And also uses the term Master in lieu of Grandmaster elsewhere for Shae. And in the glossary for The Consult again. "Though most Mandate scholars suspect Consult involvement in the death of the celebrated Sohonc Grandmaster Titirga some time around 1119," Technically possible, but it seems odd, given they could have just had Outhrata be later in the timeline, given his lack of actual involvement in anything.

Good point.  Probably a revision error really.  I'd just as soon change the date of Outhrata's death to 1126 and be done with it.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wolfdrop

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« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2017, 05:17:14 pm »
All great points. The idea of the Mangaecca predating the Sohonc by some 400 years got me excited...but TFS footnote and the Bakker quote seem to through it off.

The fact that is was referred to as the "Learned School" by 668 makes in seem far more than a gathering of contemporaries.

Sausuna

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« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2017, 05:45:16 pm »
All great points. The idea of the Mangaecca predating the Sohonc by some 400 years got me excited...but TFS footnote and the Bakker quote seem to through it off.

The fact that is was referred to as the "Learned School" by 668 makes in seem far more than a gathering of contemporaries.
What is even stranger is the language in TFS talking about the Sohonc being upset about the Mangaecca raising Nogaral two centuries prior. But if Titirga was alive 1055 - 1119, Noshainrau wasn't alive two centuries prior.

I have to assume there might be divide between what was considered the Nonman school of the Sohonc and later the human Sohonc. Which could fit with Gin’yursis founding the Sohonc before the Mangaecca and then Noshainrau being a founding Grandmaster and Titirga second Grandmaster. But the Mangaecca being referred to as older than the Sohonc.

Or this is just a big error.

Duskweaver

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« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2017, 08:46:25 pm »
Do we actually know for sure that the term 'Grand Master' was used the same way by the ancient Gnostic Schools as it is later among Three Seas Schoolmen?

In the 'modern' Three Seas, it seems to be fundamentally a political rank. The leader of a School. Each School has only one because he's the guy in charge.

Is it possible that in Far Antiquity it was instead a title keyed solely to sorcerous ability/skill/experience, and that a School could therefore have several Grand Masters at a time? So Outhrata and Titirga could have both been Sohonc Grand Masters at the same time, with Titirga (badass prodigy that he was) being raised to that rank some time before Outhrata, hence Titirga being 'the second Grand Master of the Sohonc', while Outhrata is merely an 'eventual Grand Master'.
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Sausuna

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« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2017, 10:17:56 pm »
Do we actually know for sure that the term 'Grand Master' was used the same way by the ancient Gnostic Schools as it is later among Three Seas Schoolmen?

In the 'modern' Three Seas, it seems to be fundamentally a political rank. The leader of a School. Each School has only one because he's the guy in charge.

Is it possible that in Far Antiquity it was instead a title keyed solely to sorcerous ability/skill/experience, and that a School could therefore have several Grand Masters at a time? So Outhrata and Titirga could have both been Sohonc Grand Masters at the same time, with Titirga (badass prodigy that he was) being raised to that rank some time before Outhrata, hence Titirga being 'the second Grand Master of the Sohonc', while Outhrata is merely an 'eventual Grand Master'.
We don't know, but the language would imply it is the same in both eras. The section under Apocalypse also mentions them informing the Grandmaster of the Sohonc, not a Grandmaster, specifically, about the Consult as a threat.

Wolfdrop

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« Reply #13 on: October 10, 2017, 04:14:16 am »
I'm sure in the Sohonc is mentioned as having "sorcerers-of-rank", so the terminology used seems to be consistent with modern Schools.