Is Earwa doomed?

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profgrape

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« on: October 26, 2017, 03:07:37 pm »
During Kellhus' final conversation with Proyas, he shares yet another shocking revelation (seriously, can't Prosha get a break?) about the future:

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"...The thing -- the most horrific thing to understand, Proyas, is that at some point the Inchoroi must win.  At some point, perhaps this year or ages hence, the whole of humanity will be butchered."

This is an elaboration of what Oinaral shares with Sorweel in TGO:

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"...To exist across all times is to be oblivious to the Eschaton, the limit of those times, and Mog-Pharou is that limit. The Eschaton."

Taken together, these lay out a bleak future for Earwa -- the TNG as a multi-volume (calling BS on Scott's "two volumes") version of The Road.  The Gods atemporal perspective makes them blind to their own end and because they are blind to the Consult, the Consult is their end. 

In another fantasy series, I'd accept both of these statements as gospel and move along.  But this is Bakker, and one of the things I love about TSA is how unreliable perspectives mean we never really know the objective, factual truth of anything metaphysical.  That is to say, what we learn about, for example, sorcery, is what Men and Nonmen know, not what is.  Unless, of course, it comes from Bakker.  Although his penchant for misdirection calls even that into question.

With that in mind, I see a couple of inconsistencies in Kellhus and Oinaral's statements:

"...the whole of humanity will be butchered."  This is presuming that the Inchoroi are right about the mechanism for closing off the World to the Outside.  And presuming that butchery is the *only* way of closing it off.   

"...Mog-Pharou is that limit."  This isn't True(tm) at all, is it?  From the Gods' perspective, the Eschaton is the moment where the World is shut off from the Outside, their end.  But I think there's solid evidence (perhaps from Scott) that the NG is *not* what shuts out the Outside (and therefore, the Gods) -- Ajokli manifesting in Kellhus as Exhibit A in that argument.  The Dunsult imply that it's Ark that can shut things off once it can apprehend the "code on the World".   

Given these inconsistencies, I don't think it's unreasonable to imagine an alternative means of shutting out the Outside as a potential future.  Does the "Death of Meaning" require what amounts to the eradication of all much a fragment of conscious life?

If there is an alternative, what could it be?

SuJuroit

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« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2017, 03:34:57 pm »
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The Gods atemporal perspective makes them blind to their own end and because they are blind to the Consult, the Consult is their end. 

This concept has caused me no small confusion.  While the gods are blind to the Consult, they're not blind to themselves.  And if they perceive all of time at once, then they should be able to see their end simply because their ability to perceive time stops at that point.

I've always liked the analogy that for the Hundred, time and the Inward is like a book.  They can look at any page at any time and see what takes place on that page, and they can skip around if they like, but the book and the events in it don't change unless the Hundred are willing to expend themselves to make changes, such as creating WLWs or something.  So if at some point they flip far enough forward that they no longer appear, or they can't apprehend anything at all, then they'd know that they themselves end at that point. 

H

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« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2017, 03:42:34 pm »
"...Mog-Pharou is that limit."  This isn't True(tm) at all, is it?  From the Gods' perspective, the Eschaton is the moment where the World is shut off from the Outside, their end.  But I think there's solid evidence (perhaps from Scott) that the NG is *not* what shuts out the Outside (and therefore, the Gods) -- Ajokli manifesting in Kellhus as Exhibit A in that argument.  The Dunsult imply that it's Ark that can shut things off once it can apprehend the "code on the World".

Well, yes and no?  In the sense that the No-God is the end-of-time, but also that the No-God is not literally the end of time.

Wait, what?  Ok, so the No-God is an Eschaton, that is, a marker for the end of time, but the No-God does not end time by simply being, nor should be assume that time ends with the No-God's being.  It is an apparatus.  Once it's function is complete (i.e. reading the code) time will truly end (for the gods, not for those on Eärwa, mind you).  So, perhaps we can say that meta-physical time will end.  Eärwa will still be there.  In fact, that is kind of the whole point.

So, the No-God as Eschaton: "the final action" in the sense that it's action is complete.  But simple inception (or animation, if you will) is not the completion of that action.  So, in a way, the No-God is the final stage, but that stage has multiple steps to completion.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2017, 04:22:45 pm »
The No-God/Ark is rewriting eternity, that's how the Gods end.
Whether Eärwa is saved or doomed depends on your perspective.

profgrape

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« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2017, 04:34:22 pm »
Ah, I see, I'd conflated the Eschaton with the end itself -- thanks for the clarification.  Even if there is a period between the Eschaton and the End, the Gods wouldn't know -- the timeless can't apprehend the "end times"!

A thought: if the End is the source of the blindness and all preceding inputs (e.g. Kelmomas) are also invisible, I wonder how far back in history this goes.  Kellhus, for example, is a second-order input in that he is Kelmomas' father; were the Gods blind to him as well? 

TaoHorror

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« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2017, 04:59:50 pm »
Forgive the tangent, but I think it relates a bit to this conversation. Why was Yatwer hunting Kellhus with WLW's? If she is blind to her end, how would she know Kellhus was responsible for bringing about TNG? Forgive me if I missed the reason was revealed in the text, I don't recall ever coming across why she was hunting him.
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MSJ

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« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2017, 05:04:04 pm »
The easy answer is yes. But, myself, I think those quotes on the No-God and what the gods can and cannot see, to be a red herring.

It could easily be that by some other means the Gods (100) cease to exist. "Kellhus is dead but not done." He could rewrite the Outside or someone else for that matter. So, no, I don't believe Earwa to be doomed. As others have said, if the 3rd series is just the details of the NG winning and the end of civilization, the story would have been better to just have been done at TUC.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2017, 05:11:05 pm »
Mog is more the true harbinger of the end than the end itself, as H points out above.
Probably noteworthy that the Consult aid that it is the manner which the butchery takes places, rather than the butchery itself. This pretty much implies that they do need Mog to be swirling around while the destroy everyone. So with that, while Mog is not 'the end', it is also inseparable from it.

As Kellhus said, the Inchoroi, the Consult, will eventually win. But it might not be this time. Though, it is hard, very hard, to imagine someone stopping the Consult this time:
Its now comprised of 4 dunyain who I assume are each individually smarter and better military tacticians than the old Consult, and in their sum they must be far far greater.
Far more Sranc - worse, mostly the sturdier horde from the Mountains, not to mention everything in the northeast, east, and western reaches of Earwa (where were presumably all cleared during Apocalypse 1).
There are now only the exhasted remains of the schools. Apocalypse 1 had at least 3 gnostic schools and the Quya.
Military power is at an all time low. All that remains are the Scylvendi and Zeum. (Btw, the last scene with Moenghus, it switches to 2nd person narrative (btw, fuck that, its worse than 1st person), so I expect Moenghus to do something strange).

Finally, from the gods perspective, the Eschaton is the final moment the gods perceive. It represents a singularity, if that term is more helpful to you. Meaning that after that moment, reality exists outside of the gods perspective.

One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

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« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2017, 05:13:29 pm »
Quote from:  TaoHorror
Forgive the tangent, but I think it relates a bit to this conversation. Why was Yatwer hunting Kellhus with WLW's? If she is blind to her end, how would she know Kellhus was responsible for bringing about TNG? Forgive me if I missed the reason was revealed in the text, I don't recall ever coming across why she was hunting him.

She can see Kellhus because he wasn't the No-God. Couldn't see Kel though. I hope that answers your question.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Dora Vee

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« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2017, 05:37:54 pm »
(seriously, can't Prosha get a break?)

No, of course not.  >:(


Quote
If there is an alternative, what could it be?

I've been wondering this too and really thinking that Kellhus would most likely be looking for AND finding that route. I DID think "killing faith" and thus starving/killing the beings on the Outside might have been a key. I had thought that Damnation and Heaven was based on Faith. Eliminate that and you eliminate eternal, well, anything. But, if it has nothing to do with belief and faith, then the key is to look for the cause. Isn't that how you find a cure?

I wish I could give a better answer. :(

Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
                          -Ajencis, the fourth analytic of man

profgrape

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« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2017, 06:05:34 pm »
Mog is more the true harbinger of the end than the end itself, as H points out above.
Probably noteworthy that the Consult aid that it is the manner which the butchery takes places, rather than the butchery itself. This pretty much implies that they do need Mog to be swirling around while the destroy everyone. So with that, while Mog is not 'the end', it is also inseparable from it.

As Kellhus said, the Inchoroi, the Consult, will eventually win. But it might not be this time. Though, it is hard, very hard, to imagine someone stopping the Consult this time:
Its now comprised of 4 dunyain who I assume are each individually smarter and better military tacticians than the old Consult, and in their sum they must be far far greater.
Far more Sranc - worse, mostly the sturdier horde from the Mountains, not to mention everything in the northeast, east, and western reaches of Earwa (where were presumably all cleared during Apocalypse 1).
There are now only the exhasted remains of the schools. Apocalypse 1 had at least 3 gnostic schools and the Quya.
Military power is at an all time low. All that remains are the Scylvendi and Zeum. (Btw, the last scene with Moenghus, it switches to 2nd person narrative (btw, fuck that, its worse than 1st person), so I expect Moenghus to do something strange).

Finally, from the gods perspective, the Eschaton is the final moment the gods perceive. It represents a singularity, if that term is more helpful to you. Meaning that after that moment, reality exists outside of the gods perspective.



Very insightful, Wilshire, thanks!

TaoHorror

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« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2017, 06:05:59 pm »
Quote from:  TaoHorror
Forgive the tangent, but I think it relates a bit to this conversation. Why was Yatwer hunting Kellhus with WLW's? If she is blind to her end, how would she know Kellhus was responsible for bringing about TNG? Forgive me if I missed the reason was revealed in the text, I don't recall ever coming across why she was hunting him.

She can see Kellhus because he wasn't the No-God. Couldn't see Kel though. I hope that answers your question.

You're right, but then my question is why was she hunting him? Using the book analogy, maybe Kel are void spots in the "picture" and they deduced Kellhus responsible due viewing him/Esmi talking to "no one" ... or she was hunting him for another reason than to save themselves ( the gods ) from TNG.
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MSJ

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« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2017, 06:07:32 pm »
@TaoHorror

I guess because they see him as the end. They can't see the NG, so they go after the one who brings about the end. That's all I got.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

profgrape

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« Reply #13 on: October 26, 2017, 06:16:51 pm »
@TaoHorror

I guess because they see him as the end. They can't see the NG, so they go after the one who brings about the end. That's all I got.

Or they're going after Ajokli. :-)

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2017, 06:18:12 pm »
I'm going to quote my post from another thread, since it deals with the same questions:
The Gods being rewritten doesn't strictly mean them being erased, and even if it is the Consult's understanding or goal, it might not come to pass (or at least not fully). Let's assume the Gods see the world and its timeline as a whole. At the same time they do see something they call (presumably, since the Celmomian Prophecy itself is in contention) "the end of the world". So from their perspective there is some limit for what they can see, and they are aware of this limit (here it's important that presently we consider them mostly not aware of the No-God; I'm not prepared to discuss what this could possibly mean). And the only way of interfering with the Gods' vision that we have evidence of is the process of shutting the world off and its enactor, the No-God.