A certain scene in a pool

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Wolfdrop

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« on: October 27, 2017, 03:37:40 pm »
The first scene of Chapter 7. Is this a dream sequence from Cnaiur's POV? I assume he must have found Moenghus floating at some point, but the worm coming out the mouth and the pool seems somewhat surreal.

I'm sure during PoN Cnaiur has an almost identical dream of Moenghus Sr. wherein a snake comes out of his mouth? I need to search either TWP or TTT.

Any thoughts?

Francis Buck

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« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2017, 04:20:19 pm »
I've wondered whether that was Cnaiur or Moe Jr. dreaming it since the first read through. It definitely seems like a dream sequence to me regardless, and given Cnaiur's "Dunyain are worms" speech it would sorta make sense for him, but it would also make it the lone Cnaiur POV in all of TAE, no?

Weirdly, I would interpret it the same way if it was Cnaiur or his son -- that the Dunyain can act through the people they've conditioned well after their own death, and Moenghus the Dunyain has "infected" the line of Skiotha.

Madness

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« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2017, 05:09:35 pm »
I'm of the opinion they're the same dream changed by time. Cnaiur is haunted by symbolic dreams of Moenghus for years. Perhaps since TWP and the birth and naming of Moenghus the Younger Cnaiur has been haunted by symbolic dreams of the latter.

Given that Bakker mentioned to me he wondered what people would think of the various sections repeated across TAE pulled whole from PON, they're likely of thematic/literary importance ;).
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Wolfdrop

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« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2017, 05:22:53 pm »
That makes sense Madness!

I was so confused on my initial read but I knew it felt familiar.

I’m gonna try and find the original dream to compare.

Madness

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« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2017, 05:26:08 pm »
I believe it's a Cnaiur section around when he wakes up to Conphas and Martemus talking at Kiyuth in TDTCB.
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Wolfdrop

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« Reply #5 on: January 12, 2018, 03:18:04 pm »
Finally found the section. I had originally thought it just sounded familiar, but in fact, the dream is exactly the same, word for word, from TDTCB, with the some changes: Moenghus Snr replaced by Moenghus Jnr, Cnaiur accorded his title

Chapter 13 of TDTCB and Chapter 7 of TUC if anyone wants to look up the scenes.

It's the nightmare he has the night following discovering Kellhus atop his father's barrow. In TUC it's immediately following the capture of Moenghus after the Scylvendi attack Sorweel, Serwa and Moenghus at the top of Eaglehorn.

Here's the text:

1) Moenghus's face rises from the depths of a pool, pale through the greenish cast of the water. Throughout the surrounding darkness, caverns intertwine, like the thin tunnels one finds beneath large stones pulled from the grass. Just beneath the surface, the pale Dunyain pauses as though tugged by some deep restraint, smiles, and raises his mouth. With horror, Cnaiur watches as an earthworm presses through the smiling lips and pierces the water. It feels the air like a blind finger. Watery and obscene, the bland pink of hidden places. And always, his own inarticulate hand drifts over the pool, and in a quiet moment of insanity, touches it.

2) The face rises from the depths of a pool, pale through the greenish cast of the water. Throughout the surrounding darkness, caverns intertwine, like the thin tunnels one finds beneath large stones pulled from the grass. Just beneath the surface, the turquoise-eyed youth pauses as though tugged by some deep restraint, smiles, and raises his mouth. With horror, the King-of-Tribes watches as an earthworm presses through the smiling lips and pierces the water. It feels the air like a blind finger. Watery and obscene, the bland pink of hidden places. And always, his own inarticulate hand drifts over the pool, and in a quiet moment of insanity, touches it.

I'll be keeping an eye out for other repeated sections Madness! This scene and Saubon in TAE are the only ones that come to mind so far.
« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 03:19:39 pm by Wolfdrop »

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #6 on: January 12, 2018, 03:23:41 pm »
There's definitely some insanity going on in TUC, maybe because these are the end times, like when Proyas declares that "This is the slog of slogs!".

Wilshire

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« Reply #7 on: January 12, 2018, 03:49:40 pm »
What is the context of the TUC dream? Do we know that its Cnaiur doing the dreaming?
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Madness

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« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2018, 05:44:17 pm »
I'll be keeping an eye out for other repeated sections Madness! This scene and Saubon in TAE are the only ones that come to mind so far.

I know I spotted at least one more - and as I said Bakker mentioned there were a number of recycled scenes or lines that I didn't catch - but it'll have to wait for my eventually forthcoming reread (that is to say, hope to start next month and probably finish sometime in April/May, at the terrible rate I'm currently reading).

There's definitely some insanity going on in TUC, maybe because these are the end times, like when Proyas declares that "This is the slog of slogs!".

Ugh...

I'm fairly sure Wilshire and I talked about that being fan service after I had already given Bakker my feedback but I was almost sure that Wilshire mentioned it to him.

Then again, apparently, none of the mundane errors (of which that might have been considered) that MG, Wilshire, or I noted made it into the final edition because something something Overlook is garbage.

Do we know that its Cnaiur doing the dreaming?

That's the way I read it. I look forward to alternate interpretations.
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2018, 08:30:12 am »
I'll be keeping an eye out for other repeated sections Madness! This scene and Saubon in TAE are the only ones that come to mind so far.

I know I spotted at least one more - and as I said Bakker mentioned there were a number of recycled scenes or lines that I didn't catch - but it'll have to wait for my eventually forthcoming reread (that is to say, hope to start next month and probably finish sometime in April/May, at the terrible rate I'm currently reading).

There's definitely some insanity going on in TUC, maybe because these are the end times, like when Proyas declares that "This is the slog of slogs!".

Ugh...

I'm fairly sure Wilshire and I talked about that being fan service after I had already given Bakker my feedback but I was almost sure that Wilshire mentioned it to him.

Then again, apparently, none of the mundane errors (of which that might have been considered) that MG, Wilshire, or I noted made it into the final edition because something something Overlook is garbage.

Do we know that its Cnaiur doing the dreaming?

That's the way I read it. I look forward to alternate interpretations.
??? Fan Service ??? MUNDANE ERROR ???? I thought it was fucking genius, such a perfect way to underscore the sick surrealism of that part of the book.

Wolfdrop

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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2018, 01:01:57 pm »
Was there any debate that it wasn't intentional?  ???

I thought it was a really nice touch.

Madness

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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2018, 02:56:28 pm »
??? Fan Service ??? MUNDANE ERROR ???? I thought it was fucking genius, such a perfect way to underscore the sick surrealism of that part of the book.

Lol, it really bothered me. There was no reason for it, other than to nod at the way that phrase became a mantra among readers in the five year period between WLW and TGO.

Was there any debate that it wasn't intentional?  ???

I thought it was a really nice touch.

Which part, Wolfdrop?
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Wolfdrop

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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2018, 06:10:22 pm »
The repetition of the dream with Moenghus’ face changed.

Madness

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« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2018, 12:05:47 am »
I don't think there was any debate about it being intentional or not on Bakker's part - fairly sure this is the only place on the forum it has even come up (though FB and I talked about it briefly in one of our conversations).
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