TNG- Your expectations and wants

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MSJ

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« on: November 09, 2017, 03:29:35 pm »
This thread has grown from another thread and would like to know what you guys expect. Why you expect it. And, ultimately, what would be best for Bakker, the author. See, we have a good example what happens when an author veers from his usual content, to that of full on philosophical musings. Insert Steve Erickson, who has had his 3rd and final installment of the Kharkanas Trilogy discontinued. And, I would hope that Bakker not leave so much on the table as he did in TUC. Example- The Akka and Kellhus meeting. Wow. I was expecting some huge reveals and it was set up nicely, only to have Kellhus shrug and walk away. Bad form in my opinion.

I love Bakker and his writing. And, I am sure that Bakker is a good, decent human being. But, a hard-headed one at that. I think he needs to drift from the desolation of a world to that where Mankind can survive, barely. Its not a whole lot of hope and quite frankly a small amount of redemption, if any. The plot has been set up as to where this can happen. And, after the loss, or rather I say it's of so many Bakker fans at the end of TUC (which I don't get, because after reflection, I feel it was done splendidly), and further his AMA comments, which I don't understand the venomous outlash at that.

He needs to bounce back with something new, but the same ol'Bakker style. He did say he was for the first time in his life a discovery writer. Which, regardless of how so many here feel, I think a little girl of his might have an impact on what he thinks human are capable of and what he would want humankind to do.

In short, I think we'll get the same Bakker. Great prose, description top notch, better than anyone I've read and a continue to build a world with so much intrigue and mystery that its had me on this board for 5 years discussing and dissecting.

So please, offer your take on all that I have. Your reasons, why you might think this or that would happen. And, I would love for textual evidence to be sighted. Just not what you would want, but if its what you want, where that's backed up in the story.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2017, 04:55:32 pm »
First and foremost, like others have mentioned, a better editor. I don't mind purple prose, but it gets too purple at times. Also, I don't mind ambiguity, but it seems Bakker is almost engaging in ambiguity for ambiguity's sake. I don't like the style of saying Shaeönanra is dead and then teasing he might possess the Mutilated in the AMA without any real answer or hint to more conclusive evidence.
Also, we need Mutilated flashbacks.

MSJ

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« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2017, 05:18:12 pm »
Quote from:  Tleilaxu
First and foremost, like others have mentioned, a better editor. I don't mind purple prose, but it gets too purple at times. Also, I don't mind ambiguity, but it seems Bakker is almost engaging in ambiguity for ambiguity's sake. I don't like the style of saying Shaeönanra is dead and then teasing he might possess the Mutilated in the AMA without any real answer or hint to more conclusive evidence.
Also, we need Mutilated flashbacks.-

Great post, what I am looking for, maybe a prediction or two. ;)  Always love crazy ( crazy as within textual evidence its possible. But get as crazy as you like. ;)

I disagree, whole heartedly with most if not all of complaints on Bakker's prose. Example: whe I read TUC, its like every sentence, in some cases words were jam packed full of meaning. His descriptions make me not feel like I'm there, but rather I can feel what its like to be there. Not something a lot of writers can do. However, I agree on the editing. Good lord!
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TaoHorror

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« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2017, 05:42:04 pm »

MSJ - the first sentence in your 2 posts appear to contradict ( the first seems to be asking what we want to see and the second what we predict ). So I'll respond to each:

I have no expectation for the ( final? ) books, though I started a thread with a humorous prediction of ending, but didn't garner much contribution ( I can't even remember what I said ). Bakker is simply too unknowable for me to have any guess at what he's planning to cook up. Just a shot in the dark, I think he will explore this whole who can see what stuff and a baby will be born in spite of the womb plague as an entity invisible to TNG ... if the gods cannot see TNG, stands to reason TNG can't see stuff either. Outside of the outside of the outside if you will ... which make sense in terms of infinity.

What I would like is more clarity on the ending of TUC. The Shae is dead feels like a manipulation/misdirection given his TFS story.


EDIT: I'm adding to my thoughts here ... I'm looking forward to some VERY cool horrific scenes of mass murder!
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 06:07:20 pm by TaoHorror »
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stuslayer

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« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2017, 06:54:06 pm »
Mimara's baby will give the Gods a new perspective and allow them to 'see' the NG. Full on divine battles and world-rending apocalyptic events ensue. Humanity brought to the brink of extinction, and in trying to keep the world open, the Gods seal it shut.

Frail

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« Reply #5 on: November 15, 2017, 12:10:41 pm »
PLOT: I would like to see a few POV from characters from different nations that experience TNG's awakening. People forming alliances around whether Kellhus was a *false prophet or a martyr. I would like Akka Mimara and Esmi to have some meaningful impact on the rest of the story. I want to see TNG destroy a city or nation and have a POV character flee that event.

GENERAL: More reflections of events and characters causing events rather than larger than life things just... happening. Not that the latter is worse, but PoN felt more grounded.

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« Reply #6 on: Today at 05:30:04 pm »
And, I would hope that Bakker not leave so much on the table as he did in TUC. Example- The Akka and Kellhus meeting. Wow. I was expecting some huge reveals and it was set up nicely, only to have Kellhus shrug and walk away. Bad form in my opinion.

I actually thought the anticlimactic nature of that scene perfect, except Bakker shouldn't have italicized "fell to his knees" (too overt a call back for long-term readers, in my opinion).

The only thing left untied there, so far as I'm concerned, is why Kellhus was interested in Achamian's changing Dreams.

He needs to bounce back with something new, but the same ol'Bakker style. He did say he was for the first time in his life a discovery writer. Which, regardless of how so many here feel, I think a little girl of his might have an impact on what he thinks human are capable of and what he would want humankind to do.

I think his "discovery writer" comments have to do with TNG directly. After all, we could argue that all his shorts and standalones were written in "discovery" mode, though - as per what's available - that might not seem a positive indication.

First and foremost, like others have mentioned, a better editor. I don't mind purple prose, but it gets too purple at times. Also, I don't mind ambiguity, but it seems Bakker is almost engaging in ambiguity for ambiguity's sake. I don't like the style of saying Shaeönanra is dead and then teasing he might possess the Mutilated in the AMA without any real answer or hint to more conclusive evidence.

Also, we need Mutilated flashbacks.

An editor at all is better than no editor. At Zaudunyanicon he mentioned that Overlook actually just outsourced his editing for TGO/TUC after the longtime editor familiar with his books quit circa new year 2014.

Also, he didn't specifically say either that "Shaeönanra is dead and then teasing he might possess the Mutilated in the AMA" or in the text. He simply commented twice that readers seemed to have "missed something" (bp). It was jurble and a number of others here and at Westeros who created this possession narrative.

Otherwise, at Zaudunyanicon we were given a big ol' RAFO regarding Shauriatas' fate.

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Dora Vee

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« Reply #7 on: Today at 06:08:26 pm »
Quote
Bakker shouldn't have italicized "fell to his knees" (too overt a call back for long-term readers, in my opinion).

I don't think that was a call-back, but rather Achamian willing to do whatever it takes to save Proyas. :(
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MSJ

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« Reply #8 on: Today at 06:27:01 pm »
Quote from: Dora Vee
I don't think that was a call-back, but rather Achamian willing to do whatever it takes to save Proyas. :(

Ummm, call back all the way. When Akka refutes Kellhus and Kellhus says, "You will kneel", its nothing but a call back. Everyone had been waiting on that moment. Wether it was for Proyas's sake doesn't matter.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Dora Vee

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« Reply #9 on: Today at 06:53:39 pm »
Oh yea, fair enough. I do remember the end of TTT. Just that, I can see why it was emphasized.
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
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« Reply #10 on: Today at 07:04:53 pm »
Yeah. We've been quoting that line and wondering when it would come back around since... fuck, long before this forum existed.
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #11 on: Today at 10:07:37 pm »
And, I would hope that Bakker not leave so much on the table as he did in TUC. Example- The Akka and Kellhus meeting. Wow. I was expecting some huge reveals and it was set up nicely, only to have Kellhus shrug and walk away. Bad form in my opinion.

I actually thought the anticlimactic nature of that scene perfect, except Bakker shouldn't have italicized "fell to his knees" (too overt a call back for long-term readers, in my opinion).

The only thing left untied there, so far as I'm concerned, is why Kellhus was interested in Achamian's changing Dreams.

He needs to bounce back with something new, but the same ol'Bakker style. He did say he was for the first time in his life a discovery writer. Which, regardless of how so many here feel, I think a little girl of his might have an impact on what he thinks human are capable of and what he would want humankind to do.

I think his "discovery writer" comments have to do with TNG directly. After all, we could argue that all his shorts and standalones were written in "discovery" mode, though - as per what's available - that might not seem a positive indication.

First and foremost, like others have mentioned, a better editor. I don't mind purple prose, but it gets too purple at times. Also, I don't mind ambiguity, but it seems Bakker is almost engaging in ambiguity for ambiguity's sake. I don't like the style of saying Shaeönanra is dead and then teasing he might possess the Mutilated in the AMA without any real answer or hint to more conclusive evidence.

Also, we need Mutilated flashbacks.

An editor at all is better than no editor. At Zaudunyanicon he mentioned that Overlook actually just outsourced his editing for TGO/TUC after the longtime editor familiar with his books quit circa new year 2014.

Also, he didn't specifically say either that "Shaeönanra is dead and then teasing he might possess the Mutilated in the AMA" or in the text. He simply commented twice that readers seemed to have "missed something" (bp). It was jurble and a number of others here and at Westeros who created this possession narrative.

Otherwise, at Zaudunyanicon we were given a big ol' RAFO regarding Shauriatas' fate.
He did say
Quote
Do we know the fate of Shauriatis?
and never directly refused the possession narrative which I take as a semi-sanctioning of this narrative.
DO RAFOs apply to future novels as well? Coz' then at least I can hope that Shaeönanra's fate will be elucidated at some point.