TNG- Your expectations and wants

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« Reply #45 on: May 16, 2018, 05:05:11 pm »
I still think, even thought it did not happen in TUC, that Mimara will answer the No God's question, somehow...
Interesting. I feel that the No-God's question is the main defining trait of its nature and being, thus not needing any kind of answer. The fact that the No-God asks this question in a way it does makes the No-God what it is, also pointing to some possible explanations of its known effects.

The notion that this question might somehow be answered in the series seems very strange to me.

It might also be that Mimara may confront the No-God and not exactly answer his question(s) but address it somehow (don't ask me in what way, though, I'm just starting to speculate here). Maybe related to something she sees/saw with the Judging Eye?

It's sort of a resolution of a paradox.  But it's also Mimara enforcing the Cubit's frame.  Or, if you like, the Cubit enforcing The Frame through Mimara.  The point being, of course, that the No-God only exists because it's state is "impossible" in the sense, that Bakker calls a p-zombie, of contradiction.  The No-God begs the question of "what do you see?" because it cannot see and therefor cannot know.  In other words, the No-God is a creature of no perspective, where Mimara is a creature of divine perspective.  I can't help but feel this should be important...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #46 on: May 16, 2018, 05:26:20 pm »
It's sort of a resolution of a paradox.  But it's also Mimara enforcing the Cubit's frame.  Or, if you like, the Cubit enforcing The Frame through Mimara.  The point being, of course, that the No-God only exists because it's state is "impossible" in the sense, that Bakker calls a p-zombie, of contradiction.  The No-God begs the question of "what do you see?" because it cannot see and therefor cannot know.  In other words, the No-God is a creature of no perspective, where Mimara is a creature of divine perspective.  I can't help but feel this should be important...
I very much think it is, and you describe it in a fairly concise way. I just don't see why there needs to be a resolution to those things in themselves. They are self-sufficient.

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« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2018, 05:49:58 pm »
I very much think it is, and you describe it in a fairly concise way. I just don't see why there needs to be a resolution to those things in themselves. They are self-sufficient.

True, there doesn't have to be, but we are here wondering where TNG goes.  We can presume, rightly or wrongly, that the No-God is eventually defeated and so I imagine how that might be.  Of course that might not be the case.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2018, 06:15:54 pm »
True, there doesn't have to be, but we are here wondering where TNG goes.  We can presume, rightly or wrongly, that the No-God is eventually defeated and so I imagine how that might be.  Of course that might not be the case.
No, no, I don't dispute your presumption or anything, I just found it far removed from anything I've ever felt on the matter, and so wanted to talk about it.

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2018, 11:00:37 pm »
I very much think it is, and you describe it in a fairly concise way. I just don't see why there needs to be a resolution to those things in themselves. They are self-sufficient.

True, there doesn't have to be, but we are here wondering where TNG goes.  We can presume, rightly or wrongly, that the No-God is eventually defeated and so I imagine how that might be.  Of course that might not be the case.
Judging by Bakker's writings outside of TSA, I find it save to assume that the No-God succeeds.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2018, 11:03:46 pm by TLEILAXU »

MSJ

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« Reply #50 on: May 18, 2018, 11:03:28 pm »
Quote from:  TLEILAXU
Judging by Bakker's writings outside of TSA, I find it save to assume that the No-God succeeds.

Not arguing here. TPB is above me, I barely understand much of what is debated over there. What makes you thinks is, im curious.

Though, I tend to not think the two will align tit for tat. I'm seriously of the opinion that humanity prevails. I also believe that Mimara is the key, and TJE, along with a chorae maybe will take it out.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #51 on: May 19, 2018, 01:57:11 am »
Quote from:  TLEILAXU
Judging by Bakker's writings outside of TSA, I find it save to assume that the No-God succeeds.

Not arguing here. TPB is above me, I barely understand much of what is debated over there. What makes you thinks is, im curious.

Though, I tend to not think the two will align tit for tat. I'm seriously of the opinion that humanity prevails. I also believe that Mimara is the key, and TJE, along with a chorae maybe will take it out.
I agree with MSJ. I think that it's important to remember that RSB is actually not very fond of the impending Semantic Apocalypse and that he thinks that somehow we need to circumvent the disasters coming down the pike. I hold out hope that Eärwa will survive the Logos/Tekne and manage to defeat the No-God 2.0. Love, MSJ; love will conquer all! Take it to the bank. As for friend Tleilaxu, I'll just note that it's not safe to assume anything that Bakker may write, imho.
"The heart of any other, because it has a will, would remain forever mysterious."

-from "Snow Falling On Cedars", by David Guterson

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« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2018, 11:20:41 am »
Well, Bakker has said something to the effect of "there are two different ways" the story could go...presumably the split could be either a victory over the No-God, or defeat.  I presume though (plausibly wrongly) the Mimara, as the Christ figure, does in fact actually "save" the world.

Where Kellhus was the "false prophet" of intellect, Mimara is the true prophet of judgement.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2018, 04:42:44 pm »
Quote from:  TLEILAXU
Judging by Bakker's writings outside of TSA, I find it save to assume that the No-God succeeds.

Not arguing here. TPB is above me, I barely understand much of what is debated over there. What makes you thinks is, im curious.

Though, I tend to not think the two will align tit for tat. I'm seriously of the opinion that humanity prevails. I also believe that Mimara is the key, and TJE, along with a chorae maybe will take it out.
Well, I may be biased, but I believe that Bakker thinks the semantic apocalypse is inevitable, i.e. meaning will die, analogous to the Outside being shut.

Quote from:  TLEILAXU
Judging by Bakker's writings outside of TSA, I find it save to assume that the No-God succeeds.

Not arguing here. TPB is above me, I barely understand much of what is debated over there. What makes you thinks is, im curious.

Though, I tend to not think the two will align tit for tat. I'm seriously of the opinion that humanity prevails. I also believe that Mimara is the key, and TJE, along with a chorae maybe will take it out.
I agree with MSJ. I think that it's important to remember that RSB is actually not very fond of the impending Semantic Apocalypse and that he thinks that somehow we need to circumvent the disasters coming down the pike. I hold out hope that Eärwa will survive the Logos/Tekne and manage to defeat the No-God 2.0. Love, MSJ; love will conquer all! Take it to the bank. As for friend Tleilaxu, I'll just note that it's not safe to assume anything that Bakker may write, imho.
Right, but the thing is, the other Metaphysics with Gods has its own horrors and dooms. There was another thread where somebody said something akin to eschaton being a fundamental aspect of the World, which could be interpreted as either the No-God walking (which is problematic since the Gods can't see it), or maybe even as the God itself ending existence.
Well, Bakker has said something to the effect of "there are two different ways" the story could go...presumably the split could be either a victory over the No-God, or defeat.  I presume though (plausibly wrongly) the Mimara, as the Christ figure, does in fact actually "save" the world.

Where Kellhus was the "false prophet" of intellect, Mimara is the true prophet of judgement.
But how does Mimara become a Christ figure when the God is blinded? I interpret the scene where she lets go of her chorae as her abandoning her destiny as a prophetess. I still think she's going to be important, but she's no longer "backed" by divine grace.
Two different ways could mean two different ways humans cope with existence in a meaningless world. We have baseline humans and then we have the meaningfully-truncated Dûnyain.

MSJ

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« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2018, 04:51:55 pm »
Quote from:  TLEILAXU
But how does Mimara become a Christ figure when the God is blinded? I interpret the scene where she lets go of her chorae as her abandoning her destiny as a prophetess.

I read that scene as letting go of the chorae to save her hide.... I didn't see it as her loosing her prophetess status. Akka was her only escape and Akka can't fly with a chorae. She still has The Judging Eye.

 
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TaoHorror

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« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2018, 04:59:02 pm »
Quote from:  TLEILAXU
But how does Mimara become a Christ figure when the God is blinded? I interpret the scene where she lets go of her chorae as her abandoning her destiny as a prophetess.

I read that scene as letting go of the chorae to save her hide.... I didn't see it as her loosing her prophetess status. Akka was her only escape and Akka can't fly with a chorae. She still has The Judging Eye.

During my initial read, I was confused by that scene as it's written ( imho ) as TL explains, but it was working when it could see TNG through the illusion. So either it stopped working when the winds started blowing or it still works - and likely MSJ's explanation is correct and transitioned into hauling ass mode. I still like my idea that it's a "plant" that will provide vulnerability/access to TNG, but alas, doesn't seem credible ( just cool! ).
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 05:48:39 pm by TaoHorror »
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« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2018, 08:19:05 pm »
But how does Mimara become a Christ figure when the God is blinded? I interpret the scene where she lets go of her chorae as her abandoning her destiny as a prophetess. I still think she's going to be important, but she's no longer "backed" by divine grace.
Two different ways could mean two different ways humans cope with existence in a meaningless world. We have baseline humans and then we have the meaningfully-truncated Dûnyain.

Well, one thing is that Mimara is not a 1:1 map of Christ, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that Mimara's ability, that is The Judging Eye itself, is not divine, per se, but is actually proto-divine, if I understand it correctly.  That is, if we can believe what Koringhus tells us (very debatable) the source of the Eye (and so of Judgement) is the Cubit, to which god, the gods, or even The God of Gods is still subject.

But I can't pretend that I know, factually, that Mimara's Eye will work with the advent of the No-God.  My hunch is that the Cubit, being the firmament of everything, does still work.  I have no way to prove or disprove that though.  In the absence of a negative, which I don't think it plausible in the "line" that Koringhus presents us, the continuum is the Cubit at Zero, the Hundred at 1/100, and I presume the Solitary God, or the God of Gods, would be One.  As such, there is no subtraction that puts us at less than Zero.  In fact, Zero might well be a firmament of the No-God itself, but I can't actually articulate in words my thoughts on that right now.

If any of that word salad makes sense, I'm not sure...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #57 on: May 22, 2018, 05:30:21 pm »
But how does Mimara become a Christ figure when the God is blinded? I interpret the scene where she lets go of her chorae as her abandoning her destiny as a prophetess. I still think she's going to be important, but she's no longer "backed" by divine grace.
Two different ways could mean two different ways humans cope with existence in a meaningless world. We have baseline humans and then we have the meaningfully-truncated Dûnyain.

Well, one thing is that Mimara is not a 1:1 map of Christ, for a number of reasons, not the least of which is that Mimara's ability, that is The Judging Eye itself, is not divine, per se, but is actually proto-divine, if I understand it correctly.  That is, if we can believe what Koringhus tells us (very debatable) the source of the Eye (and so of Judgement) is the Cubit, to which god, the gods, or even The God of Gods is still subject.
The way I see it, the world is more like a bicameral mind where the God/the Gods are the "speaking" part. God is not apart from the Cubit, but IS the Cubit (imagine objective morals built into the very fabric of the cosmos), at least one aspect of it, orthogonal to the real (always loved the sound of this phrase).

If any of that word salad makes sense, I'm not sure...
I believe the answer is a resounding no  ;)

edit: I also had some responses to MSJ and TaoHorror but I guess I overwrote them by mistake... Just to be clear that I'm not completely ignoring you guys!
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 08:55:04 pm by TLEILAXU »