"If you wouldn't buy it, you should probably sell it."

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TaoHorror

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« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2017, 01:15:22 pm »
x's impact on reproduction odds * (chance child goes to hell - 0.5) * infinity = moral value of killing x

That is to say, killing someone who would increase the probability of a marginal person being created has an infinitely positive moral value in Earwa. (Supposing a soul is more likely to be damned than not, and eternal bliss and eternal damnation are equally and oppositely weighted infinities.)

Nicely put  :D ... you're doing potential souls a huge favor eliminating their parent(s) preventing their inception. Hell makes murder moral in Earwa ( and here too? )
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 01:16:54 pm by TaoHorror »
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2017, 01:46:51 pm »
Bad impression, ;) !!!

I have tons of posts here and at the other side, how Kellhus did indeed love Esme and Serwe. And, I would go further and are with Tao, that he wanted to uplift humanity. There are hints and clues, from Kellhus's POV throughout the series that shows his feelings and emotions for Esme. And, this was my pet theory before even TGO. TUC, all but confirmed it, when he said he kept her in Momemn to save her soul, keep her ignorant. At one point he calls Esme the World. She's special, he knows it and loved her for it.
Bakker actually addressed it directly:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker
She's a blindspot, possessing some consequence, but no more than an anomaly.

MSJ

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« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2017, 03:44:52 pm »
Blah! textual evidence!!!!!!!
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2017, 05:17:48 pm »
Blah! textual evidence!!!!!!!
Since I'm more interested in what Bakker has to say (i.e. his authorial intent) than in literary criticism, I have no other choice but to take his word.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2017, 06:46:34 pm »
Quote
She's a blindspot, possessing some consequence, but no more than an anomaly.

Really? "... blind-spot ... some consequence ..."

Well, ain't that fuck all ... simply a key ingredient for the failure of TGO. Perhaps the most powerful human to walk Eawar ... blind.

Clearly, Bakker cannot be trusted - I don't take this as ill-intentional, but that he's trying to retain mystery and not spoil the next books - but who knows. This statement pretty much tells us nothing, so I think he's trying to down play a critical part of the story to allow for surprise. We have to be careful applying his
clarifications.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2017, 06:48:07 pm by TaoHorror »
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2017, 07:06:16 pm »
Really? "... blind-spot ... some consequence ..."

Well, ain't that fuck all ... simply a key ingredient for the failure of TGO. Perhaps the most powerful human to walk Eawar ... blind.

Clearly, Bakker cannot be trusted - I don't take this as ill-intentional, but that he's trying to retain mystery and not spoil the next books - but who knows. This statement pretty much tells us nothing, so I think he's trying to down play a critical part of the story to allow for surprise. We have to be careful applying his
clarifications.
I kinda take that to mean that the story is not about love. Love is a factor of some consequence, but not the driving force (or even a driving force) behind the events. This resonates well with the feel I get from the series, so I don't really distrust the quote above. It also portrays Kellhus exactly the way I see him - capable of love, but viewing it as an anomaly of undetermined value rather than something to base his intentions on.

Dora Vee

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« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2017, 07:33:06 pm »
TBH, I agree with the sentiment that Kellhus didn't actually love her at all. He only used her.
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
                          -Ajencis, the fourth analytic of man

MSJ

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« Reply #22 on: November 12, 2017, 01:04:26 am »
Quote from:  SmilerLoki
Since I'm more interested in what Bakker has to say (i.e. his authorial intent) than in literary criticism, I have no other choice but to take his word.

Death of the Author!!!!

Why would you believe everything Bakker's says? We have proof of Bakker misdirection and sometimes, close to straight up lying, for sake of keeping things close to his chest. Authorial intent, only means something when you can prove that its true. We have evidence to the contrary.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #23 on: November 12, 2017, 02:23:37 am »
Why would you believe everything Bakker's says? We have proof of Bakker misdirection and sometimes, close to straight up lying, for sake of keeping things close to his chest. Authorial intent, only means something when you can prove that its true. We have evidence to the contrary.
It's either taking his word or no, there is no middle ground. You can't rely on it in some matters and dispute it in others, this is inconsistent in a completely arbitrary way, which nullifies any possibility of discussion that arises from his words. For example, in this manner we can still just as well be discussing Baby Kellhus. That theory was denied by Bakker, it's not disproved textually.

I also don't see malignancy in his misdirection. Yes, he is being coy on some points, which are specifically phrased in rather ambiguous ways, but he makes his statements in good faith. The Death of The Author is of no value to me, because on those matters I don't treat the Second Apocalypse as a literary work, I treat it as a device Bakker uses to tell something. So even when he fails to convey his authorial intent, it's this intent that interests me, while the work itself is just a side-effect. His clear statement resolves any plot matter in my eyes. Until, of course, he changes his mind, which can also happen for a number of reasons. I don't expect him to be infallible.

When the series is finished and Bakker clarified his position to the point at which I understand it sufficiently well, then I would be ready to discuss the series as an entity separate from its author. There are things I rather liked that Bakker outright denied. Like that theory about the hologram of Kellhus being a kind of wave-front before the function that included both the Consult winning and Kellhus winning was collapsed by Mimara looking at it with the Judging Eye, leaving us with the No-God rising. I'm not sure it's consistent, but the idea is intriguing to say the least.

MSJ

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« Reply #24 on: November 12, 2017, 05:43:16 am »
Are you new to Bakker's comments? He's been using misdirection since the beginning, this isn't new to TUC AMA.

Anyhow, lets just take what Bakker said that it was an anomaly.

Anomaly - something that deviates from what is standard, normal, or expected.

That's exactly what Kellhus's love for Esme is, an anomaly. He told you in his answer, that indeed he loves her. See, ambiguity works both ways. :)

So, take him at his word, he just proved my point or theory for me.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2017, 01:00:30 pm »
Are you new to Bakker's comments? He's been using misdirection since the beginning, this isn't new to TUC AMA.
More like old to those games that authors play. His misdirection doesn't seem misleading to me, so naturally I don't consider it a problem.

That's exactly what Kellhus's love for Esme is, an anomaly. He told you in his answer, that indeed he loves her. See, ambiguity works both ways. :)

So, take him at his word, he just proved my point or theory for me.
There is no doubt in my mind he loved her in his own way, I just don't put much weight in those feelings. They weren't what drove him, and so every theory that postulates it is, in my eyes, far-fetched to the point when I'm not really interested in discussing it.

It's not about love, or goodness, or evil, or even failure. Those things are discussed and inspected in the series, they play a role, but that's it. In the end, it's about Bakker's worldview and his way more specific ideas like crash space. I can't say I agree with all of his concepts, but the are refreshingly new when compared to other fantasy authors. Standard fantasy fare about love, good guys winning or even, more recently, gratuitous violence just bores me. Bakker doesn't.

MSJ

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« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2017, 01:17:18 pm »
Well I'm not concerned with what interests you or not, or what you feel what is worthy to discuss. You said Bakker said he didn't love her, when in fact his statement proved that he did.

It did effect the story, the plot and Kellhus's actions. So, I'm interested in it. Seems when someone didn't see the signs and get it right, its not worthy of their time or discussion. Funny how that works.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2017, 02:07:32 pm »
You said Bakker said he didn't love her, when in fact his statement proved that he did.
I said nothing of the sort. I don't even understand where you got that. Like, really, where...?

It did effect the story, the plot and Kellhus's actions.
But of course!

Seems when someone didn't see the signs and get it right, its not worthy of their time or discussion. Funny how that works.
It's again way more complicated than that. Trust me, I see the signs. I just don't think that conventional explanations work for an unconventional series.

Like with that dream where the Heron Spear misses. After Mimara starts using the Judging Eye in fairly interesting ways, my first thought was - "someone like that defeated the No-God, not the Spear". But under scrutiny it's so extremely obvious and simplistic I have trouble to believe Bakker will go for it (it's, in my opinion, on a "Harry is a horcrux" level, and Bakker is not Rowling; nothing wrong with Rowling, he just isn't). Maybe some facet of it, but not all of it.

Though there always is, of course, a possibility of overthinking things.

[EDIT]
Well I'm not concerned with what interests you or not, or what you feel what is worthy to discuss
Oh, just to clarify. I'm not saying you or others shouldn't discuss it, I merely give notification that I won't so there is no hard feelings when I say something like "I don't see it like that" and stop participating in the discussion. I never tell people what they should or shouldn't do, I'm too focused on myself for that!
« Last Edit: November 12, 2017, 02:14:59 pm by SmilerLoki »

obstinate

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« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2017, 03:26:47 pm »
Quote
She's a blindspot, possessing some consequence, but no more than an anomaly.

Really? "... blind-spot ... some consequence ..."

Well, ain't that fuck all ... simply a key ingredient for the failure of TGO. Perhaps the most powerful human to walk Eawar ... blind.

Clearly, Bakker cannot be trusted - I don't take this as ill-intentional, but that he's trying to retain mystery and not spoil the next books - but who knows. This statement pretty much tells us nothing, so I think he's trying to down play a critical part of the story to allow for surprise. We have to be careful applying his
clarifications.
This is getting well away from the subject of this thread, but I'll there is a theme in these works of the world turning on small mistakes, small anomalies, and coincidences. The historical aspects of the glossary could as well be titled, "for want of a nail." It is thematic for TGO's end to turn on small anomalies.

MSJ

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« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2017, 10:14:31 pm »
Quote from: SmilerLoki
I said nothing of the sort. I don't even understand where you got that. Like, really, where...?

You shrug it off and said Bakker already I adressed. As in, I assumed, "Not true, man already addressed it."

Quote
Though there always is, of course, a possibility of overthinking things.

Sorry sir, but that is what we do around here. Over think things, all things....anything's. That's what has made the forum survive for the last 5-6 years. Breaking down the test, discussing and making predictions on future outcomes.

Quote
Oh, just to clarify. I'm not saying you or others shouldn't discuss it, I merely give notification that I won't so there is no hard feelings when I say something like "I don't see it like that" and stop participating in the discussion. I never tell people what they should or shouldn't do, I'm too focused on myself for that!

Why tell us you won't participate? Seems like a unnecessary thing...just don't post, ya know. Its fine to want to to discuss different parts of the book. But, if your looking for metaphysical one, Bakker will always keep them muddled. He has a great concept, but I'm sure if he started explaining we could punch holes in it. Its just what is. He can do want he wants , because its fantasy. That's why things like the whale-mothers were scrutinized big-time. People want it all to make sense. Your guess is as good as any, none will be proven right. He said as much :insert quote:. Still.....we talk about it.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,