Birth and Death Years of Characters (for the wiki?)

  • 1 Replies
  • 90 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

ThoughtsOfThelli

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 227
  • Approximation of a Human
    • View Profile
« on: November 23, 2017, 05:06:27 pm »
I thought it would be a good idea to make a thread where we could try to figure out birth/death years of characters, similarly to these threads at westeros.org. Those could later be added to the wiki if not already there.

I'll start with those I had already thought about (more characters can be added later on). Since death years are usually more explicit in TSA, I'll concern myself with birth years for now.


The Eärwan Year

I think it can be assumed that an year in Eärwa lasts about as long as one of ours (feel free to say something if I'm completely wrong about this).
We have a normal human pregnancy lasting what would be a normal amount of time if Eärwan seasons last as long as ours (Serwë was pregnant from the spring of 4111 to early winter of the same year).
The new year apparently starts late in the winter, though, unlike ours, which would begin in early winter (this referring to the Year-of-the-Tusk, not the New Imperial Year).



Part I - Achamian, Cnaiür, Kellhus, Esmenet and Serwë

From the TDTCB appendix (with name pronunciations removed as they didn't matter for this):
Quote
Anasûrimbor Kellhus, a thirty-three-year-old Dûnyain monk
Drusas Achamian, a forty-seven-year-old Mandate sorcerer
Cnaiür, a forty-four-year-old Scylvendi barbarian, Chieftain of the Utemot
Esmenet, a thirty-one-year-old Sumni prostitute
Serwë, a nineteen-year-old Nymbricani concubine

The second part of the prologue takes place in late autumn of 4109, and the last chapter of the book in late spring of 4111. Now, we're not sure what date these ages refer to - perhaps to the earliest date given. I've also wondered, though, if they could refer to specific dates for every character, that is, to the date of the chapter where they were first introduced. Keeping this in mind, we would have:

Achamian
-Supposing age refers to 4109: he could be either 46, turning 47 later in the year, or 47, turning 48 later in the year, and thus his birth year would be 4061 or 4062.
-Supposing age refers to first appearance: he first appeared in chapter 1, which took place in midwinter of 4110. He would then have been born in 4062 or 4063.

Cnaiür
-Supposing age refers to 4109: he could be 43 turning 44 or 44 turning 45, which would give him a birth year of 4064 or 4065.
-Supposing age refers to first appearance: he first appears in chapter 6, which takes place in early summer of 4110. He would then have been born in 4065 or 4066.

Kellhus
-Supposing age refers to 4109: he could be 32 turning 33 or 33 turning 34, which would give him a birth year of 4075 or 4076.
-Supposing age refers to first appearance: (same as above)

Esmenet
-Supposing age refers to 4109: she could be 30 turning 31 or 31 turning 32, which would give her a birth year of 4077 or 4078.
-Supposing age refers to first appearance: she first appeared in chapter 3 (though not as a POV), which took place in early spring of 4110. She would then have been born in 4078 or 4079.

Serwë
-Supposing age refers to 4109: she could be 18 turning 19 or 19 turning 20, which would give her a birth year of 4089 or 4090.
-Supposing age refers to first appearance: she first appeared in chapter 13, which took place in spring of 4111. She would then have been born in 4091 or 4092.


But we have more information in the text, and this is where inconsistencies start to crop up:
-Cnaiür is referred to as "a seasoned Scylvendi warrior of more than forty-five summers" in chapter 6 of TDTCB (early summer 4110). That would mean he was at least 46 at the time, though it's possible he would still turn 46 later in the summer, and the "more than forty-five summers" comment would still make sense. If he still had a birthday later in 4110, he would have been born in 4064 at the latest for his age to be "more than forty-five summers".
-In chapter 12 of TDTCB, we have this:
Quote
He’d counted only sixteen summers the year his cousin Okyati had ridden into camp with Anasûrimbor Moënghus.
Cnaiür also thinks about how the Rite-of-the-Spring-Wolves took place a few weeks after Moënghus' arrival.
Quote
"Months later, Skiötha was dead and Cnaiür had become Chieftain of the Utemot."
From the glossaries, we know Skiötha's death took place in 4079. If "sixteen summers" is to be taken literally, Cnaiür would have turned 17 that year (since Moënghus arrived sometime in the spring or earlier), which would mean he was born in 4062. Going by this birth year, Cnaiür would have been 48 in 4110 (or would turn 48 later in the year). Which yes, would still be "more than forty-five summers", but does not add up with the age of 44 given in the appendix (even if that was supposed to be his age as of the prologue)!
-Serwë thinks of herself as "a girl of twenty summers" in chapter 10 of TWP (late summer 4111). Presumably, she would have already turned 20 that summer, giving her a birth year of 4091. There's still a possibility her birth falls very late in the summer and she would still turn 21 that year, meaning she would have been born in 4090.


Working from Serwë's possible years of birth given above, considering the age differences given in the TDTCB and TWP appendix, we'd have (forgetting the Cnaiür inconsistency for now):
-Achamian (28 years older): born 4062 or 4063
-Cnaiür (25 years older): born 4065 or 4066
-Kellhus (14 years older): born 4076 or 4077
-Esmenet (12 years older): born 4078 or 4079
Which does work with the "age at first appearance" theorized above, actually, except for Serwë herself. However, the 4091 year works with that and with the "twenty summers" reference from the text, so maybe that can be considered as the actual birth year of Serwë? In that case, Achamian, Kellhus and Esmenet's birth years could in turn be 4063, 4077 and 4079 respectively, since there's nothing in the text to contradict those. Cnaiür is still an issue, though, because it doesn't make as much sense to have him be 13 at the time he met Moënghus...
Please tell me what you think.


I will add new information to this thread/change whatever turns out to be wrong as I go. I'm hoping to add a post covering the birth years of more characters later this week.
We must keep in mind that there are many characters whose age is not easy to determine beyond "young", "middle-aged", "elderly" and so forth, so I won't cover every single character in this thread as the hard-working people at westeros.org did with ASOIAF ones. (Though if anyone else may want to try that for the sake of completeness...)
Feel free to suggest characters whose birth/death years are not in the appendices and can be estimated from the text (I have some in mind already for Part II but I might be forgetting someone).
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Kayûtas (TGO)

ThoughtsOfThelli

  • *
  • Kijneta
  • ***
  • Posts: 227
  • Approximation of a Human
    • View Profile
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2017, 02:40:37 pm »
Not yet Part II, just found something else.


In chapter 12 of TWP, we get the flashback about Achamian's cellmate/lover, Sancla. The thing is, Sancla is referred to as being older than Achamian and we have his birth year given as 4064 in the TTT glossary.
That means Achamian couldn't have been born in 4062 or 4063 as I had previously estimated, but only in 4065 at the earliest. Which does not add up if you go by Serwë's age referenced in the text. It doesn't match the Cnaiür inconsistency either, as it would make Cnaiür older than Achamian, which we know is not the case. *sigh*


So now we have several possibilities:
-Going by the "sixteen summers" reference in Cnaiür's POV, we would have Achamian born in 4059, Cnaiür born in 4062, Kellhus born in 4073, Esmenet born in 4075 and Serwë born in 4087 (which completely contradicts the ages given in the TDTCB and TWP appendices for the time frame of the books)
-Going by the "twenty summers" reference in Serwë's POV we would have Achamian born in 4062 or 4063, Cnaiür born in 4065 or 4066, Kellhus born in 4076 or 4077, Esmenet born in 4078 or 4079 and Serwë born in 4090 or 4091 (which at least can work with the ages given)
-Going by Sancla's age and assuming Achamian was born in 4065, we would have Cnaiür born in 4068, Kellhus born in 4079, Esmenet born in 4081 and Serwë born in 4093 (which also makes no sense with the ages from the appendices)


I think, then, that the second, Serwë-based estimation would still be the best one, even if contradicts other parts of the text.
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Kayûtas (TGO)