[TUC Spoilers] Official "inconsistencies & mistakes" thread

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ThoughtsOfThelli

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« on: March 30, 2018, 10:48:04 pm »
By now you all must be tired of seeing this kind of posts from me. ;) But anyway, I figured it would be a good idea to get all of the series' inconsistencies and mistakes that I (and anyone else who wants to add some) notice over time.

I'll provide links to posts if the inconsistency/mistake has been pointed out/discussed in previous threads. I am aware some of these might be intentional on Bakker's part (and I'm sure someone will point that out) but I'm going to listen them all the same. Besides, I have a hard time believing some of the ones pertaining to fairly recent history in-universe are intentional...
So, here's what I found, in rough chronological (in-series) order:



Amrezzer the Black's lifespan

Quote from: TUC Glossary, "Amrezzer the Black"
Amrezzer the Black (1753-1897)--Legendary Surartu Grandmaster responsible for securing the river fortress of Kiz in Far Antique Carythusal, c. 1800, called the "Black" for his propensity to burn down the homes of those opposed to him.
From those dates, he would have lived to be 143-144 years old. Could Bakker mean 1797 rather than 1897?
However, as Amrezzer lived millennia before the series' events, it's likely that it could be a deliberate inconsistency. Or he really did live that long and chanv (or something similar) was involved?



The name of Nau-Cayūti's mother

The name of Nau-Cayūti's mother is initially given as Sharal.
Quote from: TTT & TUC Glossaries, "Seswatha"
He and Celmomas would become estranged during this time, apparently because Celmomas resented Seswatha's influence over his youngest son, Nau-Cayūti, but legends have long circulated that Nau-Cayūti was in fact Seswatha's son, the product of an illicit union between him and Sharal, the most prized of Celmomas's wives.
In one of Achamian's dreams in TJE, however, her name is given as Suriala:
Quote from: TJE, Chapter 2
When he found her--Suriala, glorious and wanton Suriala--he knelt in accordance with the very Laws he was about to break.
I'll admit that this might also be a deliberate inconsistency... And/or maybe Sharal and Suriala could be variants of the same name? (The same name in two different languages?) They look similar enough for that.



The death of En-Kaujalau

Quote from: TTT & TUC Glossaries, "Apocalypse"
In 2141, the Consult returned to the offensive, wrongly thinking the Kūniüri crippled by the loss of their greatest and most beloved son. But Nau-Cayūti's mead-brothers proved themselves able, even brilliant, commanders. At the Battle of Skothera, the Sranc hordes were crushed by General En-Kaujalau, though he died of mysterious causes within weeks of this victory (according to The Sagas, he was another victim of Iėva and her poisons, but again this is disputed by Mandate scholars).
But in the "Iėva" entry from the TUC glossary, we learned she had died the previous year...
Quote from: TUC Glossary, "Iėva"
Iėva (2112-2140)--Legendary wife of Anasūrimbor Nau-Cayūti, tried and executed for his murder in 2140.
Once again, this might be deliberate. Maybe that's even what the "this is disputed by Mandate scholars" bit refers to? They would know for a fact Iėva predeceased En-Kaujalau via Seswatha, while The Sagas were written quite a while after the Apocalypse (if I remember correctly) and the order of events might have been more muddled by that point.



Sorgis dynasty and where it falls in the timeline

Quote from: TUC Glossary, "Homirras, Ersa"
Homirras, Ersa (3972-4025)--Author of The Ten Thousand Day Dynasty, a history of the short-lived ascendency of House Sorgis in Nansur, banned both by the Ikurei and the Anasūrimbor, allegedly for arguing that power corrupts rather than purifies souls. He would die in the Tower of Ziek in 4025.
This is all we know about the Sorgis dynasty. If the Eärwan year is about the same length of ours, that would mean this dynasty was in power for ~27 years. The problem is, while working on the wiki entries of the other Imperial Houses, I've realized that the Sorgis dynasty doesn't really fit anywhere.
From the "Nansur Empire" and "Ikurei Dynasty" entries in both glossaries (bolding of dates mine):
Quote from: TTT & TUC Glossaries, "Nansur Empire"
It was under the Trimus Emperors (3411-3508) that the "Nansur" (the traditional name for the district surrounding Momemn) emerged from the chaos following Cenei's destruction to unify the Kyranae plains. But true Imperial expansion did not occur until the Zerxei Dynasty (3511-3619), which, under the rule of successive and short-lived Emperors, managed to conquer Shigek (3539), Enathpaneah (3569), and the Sacred Lands (3574).
Under the Surmante Emperors (3619-3941), the Nansurium enjoyed its greatest period of growth and military ascendancy, culminating in the rule of Surmante Xatantius I (3644-93), who subdued the Cepaloran tribes as far north as the Vindauga River, and who even managed to capture the ancient Nilnameshi capital of Invishi, thus very nearly restoring all the so-called Western Empire that had once belonged to Cenei.
Quote from: TTT & TUC Glossaries, "Ikurei Dynasty"
Ikurei Dynasty--Always one of the more powerful Houses of the Congregate, the Ikurei seized the Imperial Mantle in 3941, capitalizing on the turmoil following the loss of Shigek and then Gedea to Kian in the Dagger Jihad. Ikurei Sorius I became the first of a line of shrewd yet defensive Ikurei Emperors.
Therefore, we have:
-Trimus Dynasty from 3411-3508 (this being the first dynasty);
-Zerxei Dynasty from 3511-3619;
-Surmante Dynasty from 3619-3941;
-Ikurei Dynasty from 3941-4112 (as we know from TTT and onwards).
There's not really any time there for House Sorgis' reign to have taken place, apart from those 3 years between the Trimus and Zerxei dynasties. And 3 years does not equal 10000 days (unless the Eärwan year actually is that long, but that would only raise further issues).



Reigns of the Ikurei Emperors

The Nansur Empire is full of inconsistencies, as it turns out...
Remember when Conphas mentioned a particular ancestor of his in his POV?
Quote from: TDTCB, Chapter 8
As always, Conphas glanced at the spot where Ikurei Anphairas, his great-great-grandfather, had been assassinated more than a century before.
We get an entry for Anphairas in the TTT glossary (the TUC one is slightly different, but keeps the dates):
Quote from: TTT Glossary, "Ikurei Anphairas I"
Ikurei Anphairas I (4022-81)--The Emperor of Nansur from 4066 to 4081, and grandfather of Ikurei Xerius III, assassinated by persons unknown.
Inconsistency #1: Conphas' great-great-grandfather would have been Xerius' great-grandfather, not his grandfather.
Inconsistency #2: The chapter where Conphas mentions him takes place in late autumn of 4111. Going by the date given in the glossary, Anphairas had been dead for ~30 years at that point, not over a century.
But wait, it gets even more inconsistent...
Throughout PON, we get the idea that Xerius became Emperor at a young age. There are these quotes about how his mother seducing him led to his murder of his father:
Quote from: TDTCB, Chapter 7
Those words! Tremors spilled into Xerius's hands. He clasped them together. Attempted to gather his thoughts. Looked away from their wolfish faces. All those years ago! Fumbling with a small black vial the size of a child's finger, pouring the poison into his father's ear. His father!
Quote from: TDTCB, Chapter 7
The old, insatiable Empress alone was indispensable. Those times, in his youth, when she had awakened him in the heart of night, stroking his cock, tormenting him with pleasure, cooing into his tongue-wet ear: "Emperor Xerius ... Can you feel it, my lovely, godlike son?"
Not to mention how long Skeaös was said to have been serving as his Prime Counsel:
Quote from: TDTCB, Chapter 18
"My Prime Counsel ... of thirty years."
This could still make sense if Xerius' unnamed father became Emperor in 4081 following Anphairas' death and had an extremely short reign before being murdered by his son.
We do know Xerius' age from the TTT glossary, though:
Quote from: TTT Glossary, "Ikurei Xerius III"
Ikurei Xerius III (4059-)--The Emperor of the Nansur Empire.
This would make Xerius 21-22 at the time of Anphairas' death, which, while not directly contradicting anything that has been said before, does not sound quite right. It would make more sense to have Anphairas die earlier, giving it more time for Xerius' father to have a longer reign and for Xerius to have succeeded his father at a young age.
There is still another inconsistency regarding Xerius' age, but this entry is long enough already, so that one is listed separately below.



Extinction of the line of Nejata Medekki and where it falls in the timeline

Discussion on that can be found here.



Xerius' age

We have this passage from Xerius' POV:
Quote from: TDTCB, Chapter 5
He had received innumerable petitioners in his forty-five years, embassies of war and peace from across the Three Seas, but as Skeaös had said, he had never hosted an audience such as this.
This takes place in early summer of 4110. As mentioned above, Xerius' birth year is given as 4059. Therefore, he would be 50-51 at this time, not 45.
Much like in the case of Theliopa in TJE mentioned below, I believe this was something later retconned by Bakker in the glossary.



Cnaiür's age and birth year

Birth year estimations and discussion of the existing inconsistencies can be found here and here.



Obwė Gūswuran's birth year

We get this from his glossary entry (bolding of the date mine):
Quote from: TUC Glossary, "Gūswuran, Obwė"
Gūswuran, Obwė (4178-)--Ordealman, Grandmaster of the Mysunsai in the Great Ordeal of Anasūrimbor Kellhus, renowned for his religious zealotry, a character trait never before seen in the so-called "Mercenary School".
His year of birth is very obviously wrong, presumably Bakker meant 4078.



Xarotas Harnilas' birth year

This case is very much the same as Obwė Gūswuran's above (again, bolding of date mine):
Quote from: TUC Glossary, "Harnilas, Xarotas"
Harnilas, Xarotas (4187-4132)--Ordealman, Kidruhil Captain of the Scions, a unit consisting of treaty hostages.
Bakker presumably meant 4087 here.



The Battle of Maän and how it relates to Proyas' age

This is the first time this battle is mentioned in the series (bolding mine):
Quote from: TDTCB, Chapter 17
"That man there," the Prince continued, gesturing to a thick-waisted Tydonni beyond the Galeoth, "is Hoga Gothyelk, Earl of Agansanor and elected leader of the contingent from Ce Tydonn. Before I was born, my father was bested by him at the Battle of Maän. He calls his limp 'Gothyelk's gift.'"
From the glossaries (bolding of date mine):
Quote from: TTT & TUC Glossaries, "Battle of Maän"
Battle of Maän--A minor battle fought between Conriya and Ce Tydonn in 4092.
Proyas was young during the First Holy War, sure, but he can't have been born in or after 4092...remember that second tutor of his, Charamemas, who replaced Achamian? (again, bolding of date mine)
Quote from: TTT & TUC Glossaries, "Charamemas"
Charamemas (4036-4108)--The famed Shrial commentator and author of The Ten Holies. Achamian's replacement as Proyas's tutor in exoterics in 4093.
Maybe the Battle of Maän was supposed to have taken place in 4082 instead?



Abbarsallas' year of death and how it relates to when Mimara was sold into slavery

Discussed here.



Thurhig Bogyar's birth year

Again, similar to the cases of Gūswuran and Harnilas above (once more, bolding of date mine):
Quote from: TUC Glossary, "Bogyar, Thurhig"
Bogyar, Thurhig (4000-4132)--Holca Ordealman, descendant of the famed Thurror Eryelk, and Spearbearer to Coithus Saubon during the Great Ordeal.
Since I have no recollection of the Holca having ridiculously long lifespans in addition to their two hearts (feel free to correct me), I'm going to go ahead and guess Bakker meant 4100 here.



The name of Proyas' father

I actually already mentioned this somewhere in the TUC subforum last summer, but as it is a simple inconsistency, I'll explain it here again.
The name of Proyas' father is first given in TTT as Eukernas II:
Quote from: TTT, Chapter 4
On another occasion, they encountered a party of Tydonni footmen-some of Lord Iyengar's Nangaels, it turned out-bearing a fresh boar hoisted above them on the points of some seven or eight spears, an ancient rite of vassalage that Achamian had once witnessed in the court of Proyas's father, Eukernas II.
He is not named again until TUC, where his name has apparently been changed to Onoyas:
Quote from: TUC, Chapter 10
On his deathbed, proud Onoyas had called for his son knowing he would not come ...
Quote from: TUC, Chapter 11
Not so high above, the bound form of Proyas, blessed son of Queen Thaila and King Onoyas, swayed on slow revolutions ...



Sirol ab Kascamandri's birth year

Quote from: TTT & TUC Glossaries, "Sirol ab Kascamandri"
Sirol ab Kascamandri (4004-)--The youngest daughter of Kascamandri ab Tepherokar.
If Sirol had been born in 4004, she'd be 107-108 during TWP/TTT... I'm guessing Bakker meant 4104 (making her 7-8 years old at the time).



Sonhail Hortha's death year

This was originally pointed out by Mondoėnghus here.
From the glossary (once again, bolding of date mine):
Quote from: TUC Glossary, "Hortha, Sonhail"
Hortha, Sonhail (4064-4121)--Man-of-the-Tusk, Galeoth knight, client to Prince Coithus Saubon, whelmed as a Judge following the conquest of Shimeh, only to be found murdered in Aöknyssus under suspicious circumstances some six months afterward.
The conquest of Shimeh took place in the spring of 4112, adding six months to that would place Hortha's death around the autumn of 4112, not 4121.



Hringa Rauschang's year of death

Once more, bolding of date mine:
Quote from: TUC Glossary, "Rauschang, Hringa"
Rauschang, Hringa (4054-4014)--The King of Thunyerus and father of Skaiyelt and Hulwarga.
4114 is likely the year meant here.



Coithus Agabon's birth year

I mentioned this before as well, but it's also a small thing, so here it is again.
Quote from: TUC Glossary, "Agabon, Coithus"
Agabon, Coithus (4124-4132)--Ordealman and youngest son of King Coithus Narnol, among the first to perish on the Great Ordeal's trek across the Istyuli Plains.
If Agabon had been born in 4124, he'd just be 7-8 years old as of 4132...it's likely that the intended year of birth here was 4114 (making him 17-18).



Theliopa's age

Regarding this quote:
Quote from: TJE, Chapter 5
The sixteen-year-old could scarce look at another's face, so deep was her horror of chancing upon a gaze.
First discussed by Werthead and me here (in the linked post and the ones following it), and you also have my estimation for Thelli's year of birth here. Basically, there's no way she could be 16 (even if she'd still turn 17 that year) during TAE because of how it would affect Serwa and Inrilatas' respective ages.
I suppose this could be considered as having been retconned (as Werthead suggested) given the Nenciphon temporal reference in the TUC glossary (the one I base my estimation on)?



Timing of Mimara's flight from the Andiamine Heights

In TUC, Mimara thinks of how she fled the Andiamine Heights the previous winter:
Quote from: TUC, Chapter 11
The whole of her life awaited her in those canvas slums-everyone she had fled the previous winter ... Serwa ... Kayūtas ... What would she say? How could she explain? And her stepfather--what would Anasūrimbor Kellhus do with what he saw in her face?
But in the second part of the TJE prologue (the one after Kelmomas' Whelming), which takes place in the late autumn of 4131, we learn from Kelmomas' POV that Mimara had already fled the Andiamine Heights by that point:
Quote from: TJE Prologue
"Are you thinking of her, Mommy?" he asked. Between the two of them, "her" always meant Mimara, her first daughter, the one she loved with the most desperation--and hated.
The one the secret voice had told him to drive away.
I know, I know, this one is very nitpicky on my part, because Mimara could have left very recently by the time of the prologue, could be misremembering the exact time of year she left after everything that happened since then, etc.



The date of the Momemn chapters during TGO and TUC

The date at the beginning of the later Momemn chapters of TGO (chapters 11 and 16) and chapter 1 of TUC is given as:
Quote
Mid-Autumn, 20 New Imperial Year (4132, Year-of-the-Tusk)
However, every single TUC chapter after the first has a date of:
Quote
Early Autumn, 20 New Imperial Year (4132, Year-of-the-Tusk)
So, the date on the aforementioned three chapters should be early autumn of 4132 as well. I'm assuming this (in TUC at least) was something from an earlier draft that wasn't changed?



Who is the Biaxi Patridomos as of TAE

Pointed out here.




I'll add more to the main post as I find them.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 05:51:44 pm by ThoughtsOfThelli »
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasūrimbor Kayūtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

TaoHorror

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« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2018, 02:05:33 am »
Thelli, this is fricken awesome, you blow my mind. I'll see if I can drum up a memory of the test to contribute, but you've nailed such cool stuff. I think Bakker found his editor!
Remember to brush before bed

Dora Vee

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« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2018, 10:17:42 pm »
Very thorough job. I think some of the inconsistencies are deliberate as history is like this and honestly, some of history turned out to be BS or at least not proven. Others? Well, mistakes that could have been corrected with an editor. 
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
                          -Ajencis, the fourth analytic of man

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2018, 07:53:47 pm »
Thelli, this is fricken awesome, you blow my mind. I'll see if I can drum up a memory of the test to contribute, but you've nailed such cool stuff. I think Bakker found his editor!

Thanks, Tao. ;)
And while I understand you're joking about the editor thing, I wouldn't at all mind proofreading future books as Madness, Wilshire and others have done in the past...


Very thorough job. I think some of the inconsistencies are deliberate as history is like this and honestly, some of history turned out to be BS or at least not proven. Others? Well, mistakes that could have been corrected with an editor. 

Thank you! :)
That's most likely the case with most of the historical ones, yes, I was just listing them here for completeness' sake.
I have a hard time believing that the inconsistencies/mistakes related to fairly recent history in-universe (or, you know, events over the course or in between the two series) are deliberate, though. I agree that the lack of an editor was definitely the main culprit in those cases.
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasūrimbor Kayūtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2018, 01:06:46 pm »
Found a few more things to add to the main post (new sections: "Obwė Gūswuran's birth year", "Xarotas Harnilas' birth year", "Sonhail Hortha's death year", "Hringa Rauschang's year of death", "Timing of Mimara's flight from the Andiamine Heights" and "The date of the Momemn chapters during TGO and TUC").
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasūrimbor Kayūtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)

ThoughtsOfThelli

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« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2018, 06:46:05 pm »
Updating this thread, since I found another small birth year inconsistency in the TUC glossary I hadn't noticed before (see the "Thurhig Bogyar's birth year" section). I also cleaned up the main post a bit.
"But you’ve simply made the discovery that Thelli made—only without the benefit of her unerring sense of fashion."
-Anasūrimbor Kayūtas (The Great Ordeal, chapter 13)

"You prefer to believe women victims to their passions, but we can be at least as calculating as you. Love does not make us weak, but strong."
-Ykoriana of the Masks (The Third God, chapter 27)