The Celmomian Prophecy

  • 82 Replies
  • 6325 Views

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Cuttlefish

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 105
    • View Profile
« on: December 13, 2017, 09:09:27 pm »
I've been thinking about the Prophecy lately, and two questions emerged. First of all - who was the Anasurimbor at the end of the world? Is it an Anasurimbor yet to "happen" like the crab handed boy or Kayutas; was it Kellhus, or was it Kelmomas?

Secondly, the Prophecy was told to Celmomas by his son Nau-Cayuti, who was IIRC "riding with the Gods". This is interesting, because the last book revealed that Nau-Cayuti was exposed to the Inverse Fire, converted to Consult and merged with the No-God. So who did truly give the Prophecy to Celmomas? Was it the No-God/Nau-Cayuti, was it the gods themselves or was Nau-Cayuti's soul ultimately saved and redeemed?

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2278
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2017, 11:25:00 pm »
Wow, loaded question Cuttlefish.

The Anasurrimbor that was showed during the dream, through Celmommas was Kellhus. No, Kelmommas is who became the No-God, hence the end of the world. But, since the Gods was not in the Golden Room, I figure them, plus the whole of Earwa believe Kellhus is the No-God.

If you reread the dream at the end of TGO, NC was not converted, or even seemed to be bothered by the IF. He was simply shoved in the Carapace. And, he worked.

As far as who gave the prophecy to Celmommas, we have two choices.

1: Ajokli, though I'm not to sure about this. People always go back to the four horns. Because of the four horns.

2. Gilgoal: who I think to be who it was. Two reasons. One, after giving the prophecy, Gilgoal took Celmommas the same way Yatwer took Sorweel. As, Celmommas was an adherent to Gilgoal. Two, four horns. I think Ajoki has four horns coming out his head. I believe Gilgoals four horns are apart of his crown. I could be wrong, that's my interpretation.

3: Almost forgot this. In the Golden Room, the mutilated make a remark that Ajokli is hiding from the other 100. So, I can't see Ajokli forewarning Celmommas about that end of the world.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TLEILAXU

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Exalt-Smiter of Theories
  • Posts: 660
    • View Profile
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2017, 11:38:43 pm »
I've been thinking about the Prophecy lately, and two questions emerged. First of all - who was the Anasurimbor at the end of the world? Is it an Anasurimbor yet to "happen" like the crab handed boy or Kayutas; was it Kellhus, or was it Kelmomas?

Secondly, the Prophecy was told to Celmomas by his son Nau-Cayuti, who was IIRC "riding with the Gods". This is interesting, because the last book revealed that Nau-Cayuti was exposed to the Inverse Fire, converted to Consult and merged with the No-God. So who did truly give the Prophecy to Celmomas? Was it the No-God/Nau-Cayuti, was it the gods themselves or was Nau-Cayuti's soul ultimately saved and redeemed?
I want to think it was Gilgaöl sending the message retro-actively, but that particular moment was before Sorweel had been killed so in that moment of eternity, Ajokli was still going to be stopped AFAIK.
Also, I don't believe Nau-Cayuti joined the Consult. Remember that the Gods are blind to him, so I doubt he would've had any particular fate in the afterlife. They probably forced him in just like they did Kelmomas.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2278
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2017, 11:43:21 pm »
Quote from:  Tleilaxu
I want to think it was Gilgaöl sending the message retro-actively, but that particular moment was before Sorweel had been killed so in that moment of eternity, Ajokli was still going to be stopped AFAIK.
Also, I don't believe Nau-Cayuti joined the Consult. Remember that the Gods are blind to him, so I doubt he would've had any particular fate in the afterlife. They probably forced him in just like they did Kelmomas.

+1

That's more or less the same as what I was trying to convey.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TLEILAXU

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Exalt-Smiter of Theories
  • Posts: 660
    • View Profile
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2017, 11:51:59 pm »
Quote from:  Tleilaxu
I want to think it was Gilgaöl sending the message retro-actively, but that particular moment was before Sorweel had been killed so in that moment of eternity, Ajokli was still going to be stopped AFAIK.
Also, I don't believe Nau-Cayuti joined the Consult. Remember that the Gods are blind to him, so I doubt he would've had any particular fate in the afterlife. They probably forced him in just like they did Kelmomas.

+1

That's more or less the same as what I was trying to convey.
Right, I somehow missed most of your post and said the exact same thing.

Cuttlefish

  • *
  • Momurai
  • **
  • Posts: 105
    • View Profile
« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2017, 12:57:19 am »
If you reread the dream at the end of TGO, NC was not converted, or even seemed to be bothered by the IF. He was simply shoved in the Carapace. And, he worked.

I made the monumental mistake of buying the book off of Kobo, which allows me to authorize it for only one device that I don't have with me, so I can't actually check the book right now (fucking hell Kobo) but I vaguely remember the Consult Dunyain mentioning to Kellhus that Nau-Cayuti too was converted by the Inverse Fire. The dream sequence from TGO takes place before this, while he was still being taken to Golgoterrath after his death is faked. As I understand, he was taken there and tortured, but this did not break him, so he was taken to the Inverse Fire, which did, and shoved into the Carapace.

As far as who gave the prophecy to Celmommas, we have two choices.

1: Ajokli, though I'm not to sure about this. People always go back to the four horns. Because of the four horns.

2. Gilgoal: who I think to be who it was. Two reasons. One, after giving the prophecy, Gilgoal took Celmommas the same way Yatwer took Sorweel. As, Celmommas was an adherent to Gilgoal. Two, four horns. I think Ajoki has four horns coming out his head. I believe Gilgoals four horns are apart of his crown. I could be wrong, that's my interpretation.

3: Almost forgot this. In the Golden Room, the mutilated make a remark that Ajokli is hiding from the other 100. So, I can't see Ajokli forewarning Celmommas about that end of the world.

But how could any of the Gods warn Celmomas about the end of the world, when they themselves can't understand it? Unless it is the literal end of the world, in which case, I don't think it's safe to say that the Anasurimbor of the Prophecy has been revealed as the world, well, still exists.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2278
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #6 on: December 14, 2017, 09:30:58 am »
Quote from:  Cuttlefish
But how could any of the Gods warn Celmomas about the end of the world, when they themselves can't understand it? Unless it is the literal end of the world, in which case, I don't think it's safe to say that the Anasurimbor of the Prophecy has been revealed as the world, well, still exists.

The way its been interpreted to me, and its backed up in the books (I will go in further detail later as I don't have much time), is that the 100 can see all of time. Its like they know what will happen and when. They see time as (linear I believe, could be wrong, not my strong suit.), so they knew Kellhus would be involved in the end of the world. And, from their point of view (the Gods) time must stop. Does it mean the end of the world, or the end of the Gods (100)? Your guess is as good as mine.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2424
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2017, 12:01:56 pm »
This all presumes that it really was Nau-Cayuti who appears to Celmommas.  Akka's vision gives us the perspective that perhaps it was not though and was Kellhus somehow creating his own prophecy.  Admittedly that doesn't make much sense, but neither does Nau-Cayuti being able to appear to Celmommas, seeing as to how his soul is at the "heart" of the No-God.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

SmilerLoki

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 516
    • View Profile
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2017, 12:36:46 pm »
seeing as to how his soul is at the "heart" of the No-God.
Metaphysical ramifications of which are not at all clear.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2278
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2017, 12:55:25 pm »
Quote from:  H
This all presumes that it really was Nau-Cayuti who appears to Celmommas.  Akka's vision gives us the perspective that perhaps it was not though and was Kellhus somehow creating his own prophecy.  Admittedly that doesn't make much sense, but neither does Nau-Cayuti being able to appear to Celmommas, seeing as to how his soul is at the "heart" of the No-God.

K. Here's how I look at it. Gods can see all of time, yet can't see the NO-God (NC&Kel). But, the do see Kellhus and blame him for the end of the world because he is central to it all. Its like during the 1st Apocalypse when the Gods blamed it all on men and their wars. They had no clue that the TNG and his Tekne weapons were apart of it. Same deal, methinks.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2424
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2017, 01:07:17 pm »
seeing as to how his soul is at the "heart" of the No-God.
Metaphysical ramifications of which are not at all clear.

Most definitely unclear to say the least.  I mean, Kellhus being able to appear to Celmommas doesn't make sense, but neither does NC is my only point.  We can argue which is more probable, but in the end both things are obviously "outside the norm."

K. Here's how I look at it. Gods can see all of time, yet can't see the NO-God (NC&Kel). But, the do see Kellhus and blame him for the end of the world because he is central to it all. Its like during the 1st Apocalypse when the Gods blamed it all on men and their wars. They had no clue that the TNG and his Tekne weapons were apart of it. Same deal, methinks.

I don't disagree with any of that, generally.  My only point was that we don't really know how the Prophecy came to be, if it was somehow NC or somehow Kellhus, or somehow maybe even Ajokli.  It's all bound up in some really unintuitive time shenanigans.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

  • *
  • Administrator
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Enshoiya
  • Posts: 5590
  • Do you remember the words?!
    • View Profile
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2017, 01:14:48 pm »
The words of the prophesy, which should probably be noted:
"One of my seed will return at the end of the world" - Celmomas referring to the vision we finally see in TUC
and:
"No Seswatha, that burden, they say, is yours" - Celmomas tells Seswatha that the end of the world is when Seswatha dies.

So your two questions:
1) Who?
In TUC we see that its literally Kellhus that is being shown to Celmomas. Not sure what further room for interpretation there is.
Also note that whoever it is is simply the harbinger - the sign that the world will end soon - not the literal end. From there, imo, its fairly inconsequential which Anasurimbor is the harbinger. If you want it to be Crab-Hand, or Moenghus Sr., or anyone in-between/before/after, it doesn't really matter.
The prophesy foretells of the end of the world (ie Anasurimbor will return), and it also says when (When Seswatha dies). Of those two clauses, the Anasurimbor returning seems largely inconsequential to me.

2) So who did truly give the Prophecy to Celmomas?
IMO, I think its Ajokli.
Probably interesting to note that much of the confusion might be coming from the fact that until that scene where we saw the god in TUC, Bakker hadn't decided who it was. I say that not to use Bakker as supporting evidence either way, but to point out that there are references in the text for it being either Gilgaol or Ajokli throughout. Sound arguments can be made for either case.
It being Ajokli fits better into my overall view of the narrative, so unless I overturn most everything in my head regarding the story, I'll be sticking with that :) .

As for  Nau-Cayuti's soul - I tend to think that Celmomas was dying rapidly of bloodloss and likely going into shock and/or in extreme pain. A grieving father on his deathbed. I don't think the Gods showed him anything regarding Nau.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

  • *
  • The Afflicted Few
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Yatwer's Baby Daddy
  • Posts: 2278
  • "You killed the wolf"
    • View Profile
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2017, 03:27:00 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
In TUC we see that its literally Kellhus that is being shown to Celmomas. Not sure what further room for interpretation there is.

Sorry to be picky, but that was TGO.

Quote
The prophesy foretells of the end of the world (ie Anasurimbor will return), and it also says when (When Seswatha dies). Of those two clauses, the Anasurimbor returning seems largely inconsequential to me.

Which interests the he'll out of me, because Seswatha still lives through Akka, probably Serwa and maybe a handful of other Mandati...

Quote
2) So who did truly give the Prophecy to Celmomas?
IMO, I think its Ajokli.
Probably interesting to note that much of the confusion might be coming from the fact that until that scene where we saw the god in TUC, Bakker hadn't decided who it was. I say that not to use Bakker as supporting evidence either way, but to point out that there are references in the text for it being either Gilgaol or Ajokli throughout. Sound arguments can be made for either case.
It being Ajokli fits better into my overall view of the narrative, so unless I overturn most everything in my head regarding the story, I'll be sticking with that :)

I can see where your coming from. But, I think people confuse the four horns of Ajokli, with the four horns on the crown Gilgoal wears. Plus, as I said earlier, Gilgoal took Celmommas as Yatwer took Sorweel, as a faithful adherent to the God, Gilgoal.

Quote
As for  Nau-Cayuti's soul - I tend to think that Celmomas was dying rapidly of bloodloss and likely going into shock and/or in extreme pain. A grieving father on his deathbed. I don't think the Gods showed him anything regarding Nau.

Agree 100%. Celmomas completely misinterpreted, because of his love for Nayu and hoping Nayu loved him back. A lot lost in translation between Seswatha and Celmommas.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

SmilerLoki

  • *
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • Posts: 516
    • View Profile
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2017, 03:52:40 pm »
Most definitely unclear to say the least.  I mean, Kellhus being able to appear to Celmommas doesn't make sense, but neither does NC is my only point.  We can argue which is more probable, but in the end both things are obviously "outside the norm."
The way I see it, this dream takes the cake in being completely unclear. So far we can't say for certain if it gives us new information, contradicts the information available previously, both, or neither.

H

  • *
  • The Zero-Mod
  • Old Name
  • *****
  • The Honourable H
  • Posts: 2424
  • The Original No-God Apologist
    • View Profile
    • The Original No-God Apologist
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2017, 04:50:22 pm »
I can see where your coming from. But, I think people confuse the four horns of Ajokli, with the four horns on the crown Gilgoal wears. Plus, as I said earlier, Gilgoal took Celmommas as Yatwer took Sorweel, as a faithful adherent to the God, Gilgoal.

Well, Quint actually pointed out on Facebook that we really don't have any explanation of what Gilgaöl looks like.  At best we get told that the Nansur saw a 4 horned shadow of Cnaiür and this meant he was possessed by Gilgaöl, i.e. War.  However, consider that it is just as likely that Cnaiür is possessed by Ajokli, i.e. Hate.

We do get a cryptic mention in TWP, chapter 5, to "Gilgaöl, One-Eyed War" and the vision that Celmomas sees actually has two eyes.  Not much to draw though, since we have nothing to corroborate either side.  However, do consider though, Celmomas admits to surprise that Gilgaöl would still favor him: "Gilgaöl, War, come to claim him … Come to save, despite everything."  Consider though, in asking Seswatha to forgive him he belies the strained relationship between then, and so that who actually appears to Celmomas could be Ajokli, "rewarding" Celmomas for his hatred of Seswatha...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira