Crabby Fails

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SuJuroit

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« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2018, 06:07:04 pm »
I think TLEILAXU has it right in that Crabicus is defective because he cannot manage his emotions within "acceptable" Dunyain parameters.  I agree with Wilshire that the Dunyain apparently have the capacity to make such determinations while children are still essentially infants, and those determinations are reasonably accurate. 

I remember posting a while ago that the Anasurimbor line in general seems to be undergoing a sort of degeneration from Dunyanic ideals as we progress through the story.  Moenghus Sr. was a Dunyain's Dunyain, a true son of Ishual in pretty much every way.  When his children failed to meet spec, he drowned them.  Welp.

Kellhus on the other hand harbored feelings for Esmenet, and regardless of how he personally felt about his children, he at the very least coddled them out of regard for her.  Inrilatus was merely imprisoned instead of summarily killed.  Kelmomas was spared multiple times for Esme's sake. 

Koringhus, although a prodigy among the Dunyain, went so far as to risk his life repeatedly to save his infant son.  His defective son.  There's no evidence of any other Dunyain doing anything like that, and Koringhus himself regards the decision as a sort of inexplicable madness. 

And Crabicus is, by Dunyain standards, defective.  He cannot control his emotions.  He loves.

Wilshire

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« Reply #16 on: June 12, 2019, 05:22:31 pm »
TH, I like how you've detailed the boy as pretty much a blank slate. There really is a huge amount he could accomplish.

Btw, didn't Esmi call her defective monster children that were born dead or drowned, The Nameless Ones? The Boy is another Nameless One...
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Cuttlefish

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« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2019, 05:47:18 pm »
I think TLEILAXU has it right in that Crabicus is defective because he cannot manage his emotions within "acceptable" Dunyain parameters.  I agree with Wilshire that the Dunyain apparently have the capacity to make such determinations while children are still essentially infants, and those determinations are reasonably accurate. 

I remember posting a while ago that the Anasurimbor line in general seems to be undergoing a sort of degeneration from Dunyanic ideals as we progress through the story.  Moenghus Sr. was a Dunyain's Dunyain, a true son of Ishual in pretty much every way.  When his children failed to meet spec, he drowned them.  Welp.

Kellhus on the other hand harbored feelings for Esmenet, and regardless of how he personally felt about his children, he at the very least coddled them out of regard for her.  Inrilatus was merely imprisoned instead of summarily killed.  Kelmomas was spared multiple times for Esme's sake. 

Koringhus, although a prodigy among the Dunyain, went so far as to risk his life repeatedly to save his infant son.  His defective son.  There's no evidence of any other Dunyain doing anything like that, and Koringhus himself regards the decision as a sort of inexplicable madness. 

And Crabicus is, by Dunyain standards, defective.  He cannot control his emotions.  He loves.

I disagree with the notion that Anasurimbor line is increasingly degenerating from the Dunyain ideals, as kind of a genetical evolution. It is Moenghus himself that explains the Dunyain are not free from the causality, that though they've bred most emotions out, some still have stuck with them; I agree that Moenghus remained true to the Dunyain ideals throughout his stay in the outside while Kellhus has completely let them go, but I believe this is a consequence of the different conditions that have affected them; Kellhus, delivered to the Gnosis and reaching the truth (or near approximation) of the metaphysical forces that govern Earwa, understands the folly of the shortest path far more clearly than Moenghus, limited by his conditions, could.

To Koringhus, the realization that he saved the defective child because it is his son (and he loves him) comes much after the fact of saving him, and after a decade or so of constant exertion and creeping insanity - he is broken, not because he is genetically degenerating, but because the conditions the world impose upon him break away his Dunyain spirit; it's worth noting that Kellhus's emotionality begins to manifest itself fairly early on in the series of novels, such as when he spares Cnaiür out of pity, or when he feels a shortness of breath that puzzles him when Esmenet's life is put in danger. It's also mentioned, if I recall correctly, that some of the Dunyain were so overwhelmed when the Consult first besieged Ishual, that they simply stopped functioning - I think these Dunyain belong to the weakest lines of Dunyain, as opposed to Anasurimbor, "the most promising of the twelve germs" as described Koringhus.

In summary, I don't think the Anasurimbor split with the Dunyain ideology is a product of generational differences, but merely the unique conditions they find themselves in. I think if Moenghus, straight out of Ishual, was thrust in the exact same scenario as Kellhus, he'd largely, if not entirely, end up in the same place. Same goes for Koringhus.

Wilshire

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« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2019, 06:03:40 pm »
The trouble is, we can either say that Moenghus and Kellhus basically had the same path and ended up in much different places, or that Kellhus' ground was thoroughly conditioned such that the play Kellhus ended up had little to do with him at all. In the latter case, you can't draw any conclusions about what Kellhus might have done if left to his own devices.

But, I like SuJuroit's conclusions better than "random circumstance". It seems to be part of the worldbuilding that the Anasurimbor are special. Moenghus was exiled rather than killed, and he chose not to kill himself or isolate himself, but rather returned to the world in order to influence history. Kellhus drifted farther, even if pressed by Moenghus, to the point of doing something categorically dismissed as impossible by Moenghus - ending in Moenghus' ultimate death (at the hands of his son). Kellhus in tern meets his end for the same weakness really - that he didnt account for insanity of his son, leading to his death.

Koringhus is a pretty extreme example of anything, and difficult to conclude much. However, his decision to save his son was instinctual. This is telling - the first thing he did was to save his son.

Its a peculiar trait of the True Ishual Anasurimbor Dunyain. Though its tangential, Koringhus ultimately goes mad Because of his son, that love. This time his son doesnt literally kill him, but the Qirri shoves a crazy man over the edge, and that mental state can be blamed pretty squarely on The Nameless One.

Its a repeating historical chain of events. Should The Nameless One have a son, I do imagine it will lead to his death.

Now, is that generational drift? Hmm, maybe not. Its not really "getting worse", just fathers sparing their sons. But I do think it is something unique about the Anasurimbor, or the Dunyain Anasurimbor.
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2019, 06:22:39 pm »
I would like to note that there is no explanation as to why the crab-handed child was found defective by the Dunyain. So it seems rather counterproductive to start building theories with assuming the cause of it. There is nothing to support such assumptions.

Wilshire

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« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2019, 06:30:20 pm »
I would like to note that there is no explanation as to why the crab-handed child was found defective by the Dunyain. So it seems rather counterproductive to start building theories with assuming the cause of it. There is nothing to support such assumptions.

Just as likely that the Dunyain Pragma were tired of their prodigal sons turning into patricidal crazy people bent on destroying Ishual. ;)
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2019, 07:02:43 pm »
Just as likely that the Dunyain Pragma were tired of their prodigal sons turning into patricidal crazy people bent on destroying Ishual. ;)
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Wilshire

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« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2019, 07:32:18 pm »
Just as likely that the Dunyain Pragma were tired of their prodigal sons turning into patricidal crazy people bent on destroying Ishual. ;)
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Pragma meeting: Ok ok. Fool me once, impossible. Fool me twice, shame on you. Fool me thrice, we fucked up big ... genocide should fix the problem.
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« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2019, 08:41:16 pm »
Koringhus is a pretty extreme example of anything, and difficult to conclude much. However, his decision to save his son was instinctual. This is telling - the first thing he did was to save his son.

Its a peculiar trait of the True Ishual Anasurimbor Dunyain. Though its tangential, Koringhus ultimately goes mad Because of his son, that love. This time his son doesnt literally kill him, but the Qirri shoves a crazy man over the edge, and that mental state can be blamed pretty squarely on The Nameless One.

Its a repeating historical chain of events. Should The Nameless One have a son, I do imagine it will lead to his death.

Hmm, that is a fair point, but I think there is a different way to read Koringhus, where he actually isn't insane.  Rather, he is the most sane of all of them.

I mean, his "dividing" of himself is a bit pathological, but it does not seem to lead him to any detrimental behavior (yeah, wait).  In fact, it seems to be part of what keeps him, and the child, alive.  Granted, eventually he does kill himself, but only after the realization about the detrimental, essential lies, that he was raised on.

So, in the questio for Absolute Freedom, he does take the one act that would have him be absolutely free.  Because all other actions would still have, at least, adhered to Rule Zero.  Which is actually the rule he was following all along, in saving the boy.  The Dunyain actually went right not wrong with Koringhus, because he is able to replace Rule One with Rule Zero, on the fly.  Something that, it seems from Koringhus' description of what the other Dunyain did during the assault, it seems few to none were able to do, that is, adapt.

This is part of what Koringhus says, in his revelations under Mimara's Eye.  That the Absolute, that is, perhaps Absolute Freedom, is not a passive thing.  It's not a state to reach, it's a radical action.  Not only that, but he takes the radical action the worked toward the survival of the child and not himself.  That is, he places another rule even before Rule Zero, because he, in the same sort of sense that Moe the Elder realizes, is that he is not the "future."

Of course, Moe and Kellhus do both die "hand the hands" of their sons, but also, Moe and Kellhus die due to critical misapprehentions about the Outside.  Moe in thinking that it does not matter and Kellhus in thinking it was a thing that could be harness and/or bested.  Koringhus seems, at least to me, to suffer neither of those.  He sees the lie his own self was built on and takes the only path he could to radical freedom, that is, to the thing closest to the Absolute.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Cuttlefish

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« Reply #24 on: July 17, 2019, 12:05:44 pm »
I think it's wrong to assume that it was Kellhus who was bested by his son; it was Ajokli. Kellhus himself seems fairly aware of his son; he successfully identifies himself while leaving the imperial capital (Momemn, I think? It's been a while) for everything he has done, he successfully identifies that his son truly believed Sorweel to be intent on killing him. He can read Kelmomas like he can read anyone; the trouble is, it is the Gods (whose very existence is anathema to the Dunyain) who are blind to him, and ultimately, it is one of them that gets jumped by Kelmomas, leaving Kellhus exposed to be killed. It is ironic that, after two series of books of realizing that everything the Dunyain were built upon was false, to ultimately be deceived by the "true" powers he has acquired, a situation that he could've survived had he remained a full Dunyain and therefore alert to everything (assuming, of course, that as a full Dunyain, he'd still have ended up in the same situation to begin with as opposed to joining the Consult).

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« Reply #25 on: July 17, 2019, 12:29:16 pm »
But Kellhus had the chance the end little Kel and did not.  So, in some way, Kellhus is indeed responsible for his own undoing.  I don't really see it as Ajokli being the reason Kellhus did not kill him right there.

Like I said though, I do think Kellhus was "blinded" in a way by the idea that he could "control" the Outside, or at least, bend it to his will.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #26 on: July 17, 2019, 02:08:59 pm »
But Kellhus had the chance the end little Kel and did not.  So, in some way, Kellhus is indeed responsible for his own undoing.
This is the key. While Ajokli might have been the downfall, it was ultimately Kellhus who chose not to kill his mad son, who he knew was mad. Its almost a direct parallel to Moenghus/Kellhus ;) . Moe was in abject denial of the bare obvious fact that Kellhus was insane (from his perspective at least) right up until he died.
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H

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« Reply #27 on: July 17, 2019, 02:54:30 pm »
This is the key. While Ajokli might have been the downfall, it was ultimately Kellhus who chose not to kill his mad son, who he knew was mad. Its almost a direct parallel to Moenghus/Kellhus ;) . Moe was in abject denial of the bare obvious fact that Kellhus was insane (from his perspective at least) right up until he died.

Well, I think the thing is, to me, both Moe and Kellhus were sort of decent "Bayesians" there, from a certain perspective.  In fact, I think Moe and Kellhus did rather "rational" things, considering the given factors.  However, debatably, Moe was "right" and Kellhus was "wrong" in sowing their undoings though.  As if, I think Moe was "right" to ceed the "iterative ground" because he got himself into a sort of "dead end."  But Kellhus, he just plain makes a mistake.  He figures that the the relative weight of hurting Esmenet (which is a "known") is greater than the weight of leaving little Kel alive (an "unknown," in the sense of what would happen then).  So, I think it was a "sane" choice, forsaking the evil one knows, versus something wholly unknown.  But ultimately totally incorrect, because one, little Kel is a total loose cannon, which means the prospective downside is near infinity, where the prospective downside of hurting Esmenet is "known."

In this sense, Kellhus does, to me, fail the "spiritual" test at hand.  So, in a way, Kellhus makes a sort of Pascal's Wager and bets on the wrong horse.  This speaks (to me) of Kellhus just flatly being "too rational."  He thinks, "well, how could not eliminating little Kel could hurt me?  I see nothing, therefore he cannot."  I simply just don't see Kellhus as insane at all.  And well, I don't think little Kel is either, give his circumstances, but that is a whole different thing...
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #28 on: July 17, 2019, 03:45:59 pm »
Both Kellhus and Kelmomas hear voices in their head that tell them to kill their fathers.

Yes, granted, I think you're otherwise correct. While Moenghus probably didnt choose to die, he did recognize that he made a mistake and needed help. Even if he properly accounted for Kellhus' path and insanity, and eventually his own death, I don't think he would have changed much.

Kellhus, OTOH, fell into a similar trap of allowing the gods to overcome him. The difference with Kelmomas though is that Kellhus definitely would have killed him if he realized that not doing so would lead to his death.

So there's a difference, but its minimal. Both Moe/Kell made a mistake (psuke, thaumaturgy?/other) which backed them into a corner, let their insane patricidal-voices-in-their-head sons live, leading to their eventual death.

The Koringhus->mistake->patricide doesn't really follow, but if I torture the logic enough I can make it fit :P. Mistake, yes, patricide-voices are really suicidal-voices. Oh well.
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« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2019, 04:32:03 pm »
So there's a difference, but its minimal. Both Moe/Kell made a mistake (psuke, thaumaturgy?/other) which backed them into a corner, let their insane patricidal-voices-in-their-head sons live, leading to their eventual death.

The Koringhus->mistake->patricide doesn't really follow, but if I torture the logic enough I can make it fit :P. Mistake, yes, patricide-voices are really suicidal-voices. Oh well.

Yeah, I think, to me, that minimal difference is that Moe's mistake was "less avoidable" since he didn't really have much of a different path, once he made the wrong choices.  Kellhus though, it at least seems, could have chosen differently at that moment, he just didn't.  Now, that characterization is totally dependent on how we choose to view the Ajokli confounding influence though.  I just choose to not see that particular choice, to let Kel live, as really being "influenced" by the Ajokli-taint.

However, I actually don't think Koringhus is insane, or even made a mistake, besides the srot of "unavoidable" one he made of accepting the Dunyain principles he was raised on.  But even then, being cloistered in a monastery with no outside contact and living a life that is totally Conditioned, he was likely being as "good a Bayesian" as he could be.  And, in light of what happened, he did what he  "had to" to survive (and ensure the survival of his "genetic legacy").  His "compartmentalization" or "personality fracturing" likely was somewhat pathological, but, to me, really a sane act of survival, as it really was not maladaptive, but seems to have been at least somewhat beneficial.

In the end, Koringhus makes the most "sane" choice.  Realizing his "usefulness" has been expended, he takes the only path he can for "real" transcendental (or Absolute, if you will) Freedom.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira