Crabby Fails

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themerchant

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« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2019, 03:51:58 pm »
How do we know Kellhus has failed. Perhaps he planned past a defeat.

When Iyokus is speaking to Akka when he has him captured he states that Skuarus planned past a defeat which is a sign of true intelligence.

Cuttlefish

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« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2019, 08:03:39 pm »
What I mean by "it was Ajokli that was defeated", was that at Kellhus's death, it's Ajokli who is affected by Kelmomas, not Kellhus.

And it's arguable that Sorweel could've and would've killed Kellhus without Kelmomas's influence, so Kellhus sparing him in Esmenet's behalf got him further. He could've killed him afterwards, but what precise reason did he have? Outwardly, Kelmomas was never a threat to Kellhus.

And I don't think it's comparable, what happened with Moenghus. Moenghus couldn't have killed Kellhus even if he wanted (and Kellhus speculates that he'd try; he speculates on an alternative scenario where Moenghus, being Dunyain still, is inevitably converted to the Consult, kills Kellhus, takes his place as the prophet, and leads the world to slaughter); Kellhus possessed sight as a physical advantage, and though he hadn't yet reached the full height of his power, he was still the stronger magician with the Gnosis. So, for Moenghus, it wasn't a choice.

How do we know Kellhus has failed. Perhaps he planned past a defeat.

He says something like "the Consult has to win" to Proyas before he dies, and Bakker himself said "Kellhus is dead, but not done". So, perhaps, the ground the world has to thread without Kellhus is still conditioned by him! Kellhus's conversation with Moenghus implied to me that he sought something "more" for humanity, by mentioning sharing the truth with them, though Moenghus immediately dismisses the possibility. Perhaps, he seeks to break the cycle of monstrous morality that grips Earwa, of gods who feast on the souls of almost *everyone*.

Though, his reaction to being defeated in the end seemed to be of genuine shock, so I don't know how much he expected what went down.

Madness

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« Reply #32 on: July 21, 2019, 12:09:50 pm »
Wb, Cuttlefish. Love the posts.

Two thoughts.

I think Sorweel would've succeeded exactly as he saw it with Serwa killing him. Bakker did tell me "all bets are off" when he handed me the draft for TUC and I legit read that portion thinking it was real the first time.

Secondly, Kellhus arguably actually enacts his visions of Moenghus' takeover. The Ordeal *is* led to "salt and butchery," even though I would argue Kellhus did have "noble" intentions [and didn't manufacture the Ordeal's various crises]. Paved roads to hell and all that ;).
« Last Edit: July 21, 2019, 12:13:42 pm by Madness »
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TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #33 on: July 21, 2019, 06:37:31 pm »
How do we know Kellhus has failed. Perhaps he planned past a defeat.

When Iyokus is speaking to Akka when he has him captured he states that Skuarus planned past a defeat which is a sign of true intelligence.

That's a good spot re Skauras.

What I mean by "it was Ajokli that was defeated", was that at Kellhus's death, it's Ajokli who is affected by Kelmomas, not Kellhus.

And it's arguable that Sorweel could've and would've killed Kellhus without Kelmomas's influence, so Kellhus sparing him in Esmenet's behalf got him further. He could've killed him afterwards, but what precise reason did he have? Outwardly, Kelmomas was never a threat to Kellhus.

And I don't think it's comparable, what happened with Moenghus. Moenghus couldn't have killed Kellhus even if he wanted (and Kellhus speculates that he'd try; he speculates on an alternative scenario where Moenghus, being Dunyain still, is inevitably converted to the Consult, kills Kellhus, takes his place as the prophet, and leads the world to slaughter); Kellhus possessed sight as a physical advantage, and though he hadn't yet reached the full height of his power, he was still the stronger magician with the Gnosis. So, for Moenghus, it wasn't a choice.

Ajokli being 'exorcised' does lead directly to Kellhus' death.  He is at best surprised by Kelmomas being there, and cannot deal with the skin-spies (and perhaps may be over-matched by four Dunyain and a large number of skin-spies in any case).  Kellhus has lost the advantage that he got from being possessed by a God.  He has arguably lost any choice as to the outcome of events.
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Seswatha, that's who.

TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2019, 06:54:26 pm »
He says something like "the Consult has to win" to Proyas before he dies, and Bakker himself said "Kellhus is dead, but not done". So, perhaps, the ground the world has to thread without Kellhus is still conditioned by him! Kellhus's conversation with Moenghus implied to me that he sought something "more" for humanity, by mentioning sharing the truth with them, though Moenghus immediately dismisses the possibility. Perhaps, he seeks to break the cycle of monstrous morality that grips Earwa, of gods who feast on the souls of almost *everyone*.

Though, his reaction to being defeated in the end seemed to be of genuine shock, so I don't know how much he expected what went down.

Kellhus has surely left conditioned ground behind.  He has rewritten Scripture, and is surely going to be seen as some sort of holy figure in the Three Seas. The Akka/ Mimara plotline seems like a set-up.  He also sent the Ciphrang off to Zeum.  He's taken virtually the entire military and sorcerous leadership of the Three Seas and must have known that a huge proportion would die on the Ordeal.

Secondly, Kellhus arguably actually enacts his visions of Moenghus' takeover. The Ordeal *is* led to "salt and butchery," even though I would argue Kellhus did have "noble" intentions [and didn't manufacture the Ordeal's various crises]. Paved roads to hell and all that ;).

He certainly does appear to enact his vision of what Meonghus woudl do.
Kellhus' thoughts in TTT are:
"For the Dunyain it was axiomatic: what was compliant had to be isolated from was unruly and intractable. Kellhus had seen it many times, wandering the labyrinth of possibilities that was the Thousandfold Thought:  The Warrior-Prophet's assassination.  The rise of Anasurimbor Moenghus to take his place.  The apocalyptic conspiracies.  The counterfeit war against Golgotterath.  The accumulation of premeditated disasters.  The sacrifice of whole nations to the gluttony of the Sranc.  The Three Seas cashing into char and ruin.
The Gods baying like wolves at a silent gate
".

Going by the events of TAE, we can only conclude that Kellhus either has planned past defeat at Golgotterath - or that his plan was to bring Ajokli into the World as stated in TUC, in which case he failed.  I would guess the former (especially given his comments to Proyas).

But - I'm pretty sure events have not worked out as Kellhus intended.  He doesn't know and cannot foresee everything, whether or not he thinks he can (and indeed as the writing leads us as readers to think he can at times).  He has his limits based on what he is - still a human being, although a very gifted one.
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TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #35 on: July 21, 2019, 07:41:05 pm »
But - I'm pretty sure events have not worked out as Kellhus intended.  He doesn't know and cannot foresee everything, whether or not he thinks he can (and indeed as the writing leads us as readers to think he can at times).  He has his limits based on what he is - still a human being, although a very gifted one.

Kelmomas popping up and 'getting rid' of Ajokli, certainly seem to have thrown him.  As per my earlier post, he seems to have lost control of events at this point.  His attempts to condition the ground inside the Ark don't seem to have worked out - or have been rendered impotent by the unforeseen circumstances of Kelmomas being the No-God.
Sez who?
Seswatha, that's who.