Inrau and the Cants of Compulsion

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MSJ

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« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2017, 06:42:32 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
Of, that's a fair point, and also obvious lol, I should have seen what you meant.
So you're saying Inrau's sequence is him simply reflecting on the dream he was sent, and his initial view of Akka casting in the bar was in the dream.
His "what are you doing here" comment was the first thing we hear/see him do in real-space (as opposed to dream-space)? Makes sense.

You got it. Wilshire, by now, you should know it takes 3 to 4 posts for me to correctly convey what I mean. In the end you got it! ;)

I can't remember the name of Akka's Shrial Knights informant, but, he could easily give Akka the place where Inrau sleeps. And, lets think about it. Its the easiest way for Akka to go undetected and gain a meeting with Inrau. I'm pretty sure that's what happened.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 06:44:04 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wolfdrop

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« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2017, 10:17:04 pm »
For me, theres no clear answer.

The Cant used doesn't match the Cants of Calling or Compulsion exclusively, but I'm leaning towards some kind of minor Compulsion to puppet him to the meeting. Fuck it, I'm calling it a Cant of Locomotion and saying that it's never used again in the series to put my OCD at rest.

What I can't understand is using sorcery in Sumna, even hidden by a hood or facing a wall or whatever, seems totally nonsensical.

Given that there's ideas in TDTCB that never fully developed is this one of them? One off spells we never see again before the magic system was set in stone? Again, Inrau's superhuman speed, exploding fiery blood spells etc come to mind. There's also the Nonman "levitating" back to his feet in the initial fight with Kellhus, something that's never seen again.


MSJ

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« Reply #17 on: December 26, 2017, 10:55:02 pm »
Quote from:  Wolfdrop
Given that there's ideas in TDTCB that never fully developed is this one of them?

Very good possibility, or, you could just relent to my unsurpassed knowledge, lol. ;)

Its very neat. Especially, like I said, I've read TDTCB 7 times at least. And, there's always tidbits you miss no matter how many times you read. Hence, the forum.

OCD, I'm running from you Wolfdrop. The wife has OCD when it comes to the house. She can be very fierce.

Quote
For me, theres no clear answer.

Well, yeah, but it brings life to the forum and I've had a blast speculating on it and reading others. Keep the surprises coming.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2017, 10:58:04 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

JerakoKayne

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« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2018, 08:05:18 pm »
It was most definitely sorcery, and Achamian has practice using it, as well as hiding it, in public places. He's not staring at the Shrial Knights with lit eyes (and perhaps only the Few see the actual light from eyes/mouth?).

He's being conspicuous while being inconspicuous. The Shrial Knights have better things to pay attention to.

That said, the Mark stuff is what gave me pause at first, too. My best guess is Achamian is working a temporary version of the Cant. (The Mark is visible while operable) It is only when the current effects permanantly Compel the subject (i.e. permanently Compel) that the mark of the sorcery is permanently visible.

But when Achamian was done, and had Inrau where he needed him, the Cant (and thus the Mark) were completely released. Inrau didn't have a permanent Mark because he wasn't permanently Compelled.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 08:07:19 pm by JerakoKayne »

MSJ

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« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2018, 08:15:53 pm »
The light from sorcery is seen by everyone. There are 1000 descriptions of it throughout the series.

Its hard to take TDTCB into account on certain subject. Skin-Spies is an example. They took that Shrial Knights face, but they don't need his face. This could be another "thing" Bakker hasn't fully fleshed out. Nevertheless, its an awesome find.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2018, 09:02:26 pm »
The problem with 'temporary marks' is that we don't really see any of those either. When something is blasted with a Cant, it gets marked, even if it wasn't the intended target. See any description of a battlefield, especially in TJE and beyond. Akka (or Mim?) mentions that the trees bare the mark around his tower, and there are musings on the grounds post-battles (and even how anagogis and gnosis marks differ).

Not saying you're wrong, just putting the information out there.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

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« Reply #21 on: January 05, 2018, 09:09:09 pm »
There are no temporary marks, correct. And, for the life of me I can't see Akka working sorcery in a bar in Sumna..

I think it is just Inrau contemplating a dream on his way to the bar. So maybe a Can't of Calling were the receiver doesn't get a Mark.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TaoHorror

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« Reply #22 on: January 05, 2018, 10:57:03 pm »
This is likely simply an inconsistency, I think Akka was using sorcery to get him there. That said, could be this particular Cant doesn't directly impact the target - like affecting the stimuli around the subject which in effect draws the subject closer but is unmarked since it the sorcery didn't directly "touch" him ... lame, I know, but we sorta saw the same thing when Akka escaped captivity knocking something over which sent a spark into the chorae wielder's eye ( forget what it was, a brazier I think ) - not only did sorcery effect someone with chorae ( should be impossible, but proximate cause allowed it ), it probably didn't leave a mark as well.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2018, 10:59:01 pm by TaoHorror »
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Wilshire

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« Reply #23 on: January 05, 2018, 11:55:07 pm »
"...lame" was my exact thought lol.

Akka going Super-Seswatha when he breaks out does many things to the chorae bearers. Memorably, he collapse a whole floor on top of a group of Javrhe (spelling).
So yeah, one step removed is sufficient to avoid a chorae and therefore, I would guess, a mark.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2018, 03:57:18 am »
"...lame" was my exact thought lol.

Akka going Super-Seswatha when he breaks out does many things to the chorae bearers. Memorably, he collapse a whole floor on top of a group of Javrhe (spelling).
So yeah, one step removed is sufficient to avoid a chorae and therefore, I would guess, a mark.

Well, that's my point ... my explanation is lame, but can't explain it any other way if it wasn't an inadvertent inconsistency or sorcery wasn't employed ( just don't find the he was dreaming while going to Akka compelling - off beat and somewhat complicated to artfully express that thinking we the readers would figure that out - if not for the discussion here about the "mark", don't think that avenue would've been explored - just does not read that way to me ).
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Wolfdrop

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« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2018, 01:09:02 pm »
I don’t buy that it’s not sorcery and just a dream state/remembering either.

Simply using sorcery wouldn’t immediately make everyone see the light. Yes, further in the series everyone can see Gnostic War Cants but the glowing eyes and mouth can be hidden. They are in fact hidden by their cowls by sorcerers later in the series.

The thunderous voice that comes from everywhere seems to be associated with certain Cants. I doesn’t seem to happen with the Cants of Compulsion and Calling or the Agonies when used on Seswatha.

There’s no doubt it’s risky, and a bit of an inconsistency. But I don’t think there’s anything to suggest using sorcery immediately points it out to everyone nearby.

I think the face removal thing was originally going to be expanded upon more, but in the case of the Javreh Shield-Captain Geshrunni, I’m happy enough with the explanation that they removed his face to both be more brutal because they enjoy it, and to render indentifying th body more difficult if it’s found. I’m assuming a replacement skin-spy took his place.

For me, the real problem here lies in the unwillingness to stain Inrau with the Mark.

Wilshire

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« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2018, 01:26:28 pm »
For me, the real problem here lies in the unwillingness to stain Inrau with the Mark.
That's really the line that creates the most problem. Certainly without that line, there's really no reason to assume that Akka did anything special or unusual here.  Probably a needless risk to do it in a crowded room, but not unfathomably so. No one ever claimed Akka was a good spy ;) .

I don't think anyone was claiming that the booming voice is intrinsic to all sorcery, but I agree that its certainly not. Akka even specifically does a cool little whisper-one-hit-kill Cant when he gets attacked in the Library. The light is obviously non-negotiable, but you'd expect him to be smart enough to put his hood up and look down at the floor when canting in public.
One of the other conditions of possibility.