[Spoilers TGO/TUC] Dragged off to hell...

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Dora Vee

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« on: January 07, 2018, 01:27:54 am »
IIRC only two characters were shown to be "Dragged off to Hell": Proyas and Saubon. I often wondered what the significance of that was. The Judging Eye was never used on either of them and I'm pretty sure they were the only two with the POVs of being "Dragged".

To me, I play the At Best/At worst game.

At best: CIPHRANG BABY! Ascendant in some way. Reborn/Reincarnated in some way.

At worst: You'll never see either one of them again. They might be mentioned every once in awhile (Like Xinemus or Serwe), but they are dead and done. :(
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
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TaoHorror

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« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2018, 03:08:05 am »
I wish I had something to contribute here, but I'm simply clueless on the whole Outside thing, just not enough information for me to conclude anything. Could be the apparent arbitrariness is a criticism of the concept of heaven/hell from bakker, that no "system" of salvation/damnation determination could ever be objective, so fuck it, abandon any semblance of a scheme to shine light on the "error" for such a "divine" approach on the subject. That's the best I got, Bakker is purposely making it a random jumble of shit ( which of course just confuses the shit out of us readers trying to make sense of it all ). You could be on to something - when I read it, I had the feeling "something" was "taking" them, but could be they were in process of becoming Ciphrang ( which I would like if it was - would be cool to see Ciphrang Proyas kick some ass, and that Kellhus' "preparation" of Proyas was more than lead the army to Golgotterath ).
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2018, 07:08:26 am »
There's also at least two others, a sorcerer and some Tydonni chieftain, which are described as going to hell. I don't think any of them are going to become Ciphrang, that requires a far greater predatory nature.

Dora Vee

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« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2018, 01:24:27 pm »
As a POV or just described?

As for ciphrang requirements, if it requires a far greater predatory nature, then I think Saubon, at least, would qualify.
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
                          -Ajencis, the fourth analytic of man

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2018, 02:08:58 pm »
Oh, no not POV. I have the feeling that a Ciphrang to be wouldn't e.g. feel fear at being dragged to hell like Saubon seems to do, but I could be wrong.

Dora Vee

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« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2018, 02:52:50 pm »
Well, if you don't know you're going to be ciphrang, that could still be scary. Look at Kosotor. He still feared damnation.

And really, the Consult would qualify as ciphrang.
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
                          -Ajencis, the fourth analytic of man

TaoHorror

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« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2018, 03:51:23 pm »
Bakker's go to is to reveal character's confusion as opposed to revealing what is really going on, so it could well be someone transitioning to Ciphrang could be wrought with terror and confusion.
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TLEILAXU

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« Reply #7 on: January 07, 2018, 04:12:49 pm »
Well, if you don't know you're going to be ciphrang, that could still be scary. Look at Kosotor. He still feared damnation.

And really, the Consult would qualify as ciphrang.
But remember what the Inverse Fire showed them, all of them burning. I think to become a Ciphrang you'd have to be maybe less self-aware, e.g. like Cnaiur embrace madness.

Dora Vee

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« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2018, 05:20:26 pm »
I think Kosotor was pretty self-aware and really, how accurate IS the Inverse Fire? It's a recruitment tool. The Consult would say anything to get recruits.
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
                          -Ajencis, the fourth analytic of man

TLEILAXU

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« Reply #9 on: January 07, 2018, 08:30:29 pm »
I think Kosotor was pretty self-aware and really, how accurate IS the Inverse Fire? It's a recruitment tool. The Consult would say anything to get recruits.
Well, I don't know. Maybe people like Kosoter are more enslaved to to their ill intent, more animalistic/primal. I do think the Fire burns true, as Kellhus also said.

Dora Vee

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« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2018, 03:31:35 am »
But, don't Ciphrang burn in their own right? I mean, Aurang was pretty damned animalistic...

Serwa was described as Ciphrang by the Judging Eye and she had "burns upon burns".
Faith is the truth of passion. Since no passion is more true than another, faith is the truth of nothing.   
                          -Ajencis, the fourth analytic of man

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« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2018, 01:57:43 pm »
I think Kosotor was pretty self-aware and really, how accurate IS the Inverse Fire? It's a recruitment tool. The Consult would say anything to get recruits.

Well, there really isn't much of a way to know how accurate the Inverse Fire is/was.

I don't really favor the idea that it is a lie though.  In fact, I'm apt to "assume" it is very much the truth.  In fact, truer than most things we are presented in the series.  I don't really think that of all the things the Consult are guilty of, lying is chief among them...
I am a warrior of ages, Anasurimbor. . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury. -Cet'ingira

TaoHorror

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« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2018, 02:24:12 pm »
I think Kosotor was pretty self-aware and really, how accurate IS the Inverse Fire? It's a recruitment tool. The Consult would say anything to get recruits.

Well, there really isn't much of a way to know how accurate the Inverse Fire is/was.

I don't really favor the idea that it is a lie though.  In fact, I'm apt to "assume" it is very much the truth.  In fact, truer than most things we are presented in the series.  I don't really think that of all the things the Consult are guilty of, lying is chief among them...

Well, they are quite adept at spying and deception  ;) ... but I agree, if the IR is a sham, just too much comes undone with the story degenerating into a Faulkner tale ( which would be ok if the story was presented differently ). Also, something about the goad is compelling them to buy into it. Simply fooling them with tv would weaken the frame of this thing considerably.

But, who knows, Bakker could fashion himself as Ajokli ( much the same way Rice does with Lestat ), so the Arc could be THE preternatural "trick". But I think that's a stretch, don't buy it, myself.
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Wilshire

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« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2018, 02:39:49 pm »
But another common theme is things being both true and false.

If the IF is a tool of Ajokli (or [insert god entity here]), and if gods can vie for whichever soul, then the IF might show what happens to any soul that enters into Ajokli's domain.

I'm not sure an IF that shows the fate of each individual in their particular objective afterlife makes much sense. There's many gods, many fates, and we only here of one: eternal torment and pain (other than Kellhus but we all know he's special. Him breaking the rules is expected. Besides, he still appears to bein the same burning-torment-world).
Where are all the happy afterlives? Not that Bakker did a great job of giving us enough information to puzzle things out, I would still expect someone to not be damned.
Simultaneously too little and too much information to make a strong argument for much of anything :( .
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SmilerLoki

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« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2018, 03:10:43 pm »
I'm not sure that "how true is the Inverse Fire?" is of consequence. It might metaphysically not be relevant to determine any soul's afterlife in the sense that temporal (and possibly objective) existence in Earwa is completely different from atemporal (and possibly subjective) one in the Outside. So a still living soul looking in the Inverse Fire sees torment that isn't going to be torment from the point of view of that same soul in the Outside. It's about incomprehensibility, or the complete inability to relate to something you have no point of reference to comprehend at the time. From what I understand, Bakker is big on the latter concept.

The question about the Inverse Fire is how convincing is it. And it seems to be very convincing.