"Kellhus is dead, but not done."

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Francis Buck

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« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2018, 10:08:08 am »
Perhaps Kellhus has managed to get Ajokli stuck in Earwa and at the same time got sent to hell and supplants him.

I dig this. Very clever idea and would seem too explain several things...

Too early in the morning for me to wrap my around head the causal/atemporal ramifications of this if it is true.

Cuttlefish

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« Reply #31 on: August 23, 2018, 01:13:12 pm »
Re: Mutilated Machinations

Just want to throw out that they might not give a damn about their souls, or even believe in them, but simply belive the shortest path to being a self moving soul is to remove the original movers from the game.

About this, I found an interesting passage from the last book of the first trilogy, where Kellhus predicts what his father would do if he came to realize he was damned:

Kellhus looked to the haloes about his hands. “The crimes you’ve committed, Father … the sins … When you learn of the damnation that awaits you, when you come to believe, you will be no different from the Inchoroi. As Dûnyain, you will be compelled to master the consequences of your wickedness. Like the Consult, you will come to see tyranny in what is holy … And you will war as they war.”

Kellhus fell back into himself, opened his deeper soul to the details of his father’s nearly naked form, assessing, appraising. The strength of limbs. The speed of reflexes.

 Must move quickly.

“To shut the World against the Outside,” the pale lips said. “To seal it through the extermination of mankind …”

“As Ishuäl is shut against the Wilderness,” Kellhus replied.

 For the Dûnyain, it was axiomatic: what was compliant had to be isolated from what was unruly and intractable. Kellhus had seen it many times, wandering the labyrinth of possibilities that was the Thousandfold Thought: The Warrior-Prophet’s assassination. The rise of Anasûrimbor Moënghus to take his place. The apocalyptic conspiracies. The counterfeit war against Golgotterath. The accumulation of premeditated disasters. The sacrifice of whole nations to the gluttony of the Sranc. The Three Seas crashing into char and ruin.

The Gods baying like wolves at a silent gate.

Perhaps his father had yet to apprehend this. Perhaps he simply couldn’t see past the arrival of his son. Or perhaps all this—the accusations of madness, the concern over his unanticipated turn—was simply a ruse. Either way, it was irrelevant.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2018, 01:16:34 pm by Cuttlefish »

Cuttlefish

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« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2018, 01:09:27 pm »
Thinking more on Bakker's statement, I think I get a sense of what was the point throughout. I think the Great Ordeal was designed to fail from the getgo. Kellhus himself says to Proyas that the Consult, at one point, must win - and that what they do here rewrites the Hundred. He then explains himself to the Mutiliated as an Inverse Prophet (which, in my understanding, is supposed to be a prophet sent by mankind to the gods, as opposed to sent to mankind by the gods); he not only delivers one of the Gods, Ajokli, into defeat at the hands of the Unholy Consult (possibly even death), but also makes the Judging Eye itself acknowledge the existence of No-God. Maybe now the Gods have to take notice, realizing the power of the absence that No-God represents.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2018, 03:17:18 pm »
Thinking more on Bakker's statement, I think I get a sense of what was the point throughout. I think the Great Ordeal was designed to fail from the getgo. Kellhus himself says to Proyas that the Consult, at one point, must win - and that what they do here rewrites the Hundred. He then explains himself to the Mutiliated as an Inverse Prophet (which, in my understanding, is supposed to be a prophet sent by mankind to the gods, as opposed to sent to mankind by the gods); he not only delivers one of the Gods, Ajokli, into defeat at the hands of the Unholy Consult (possibly even death), but also makes the Judging Eye itself acknowledge the existence of No-God. Maybe now the Gods have to take notice, realizing the power of the absence that No-God represents.
The God, who is presumably behind the Eye (and who is somewhat at odds with the Zero-God as outlined in The Survivor's revelation), is not one of the Gods, has a different nature, and therefore there is no reason to think He (It?) was ever blind to the No-God. On the matter of Ajokli, he is most certainly not dead, since he possessed Cnaiur after the events in the Golden Room.

I also don't see how he was defeated. He might not have achieved all of his goals, but he did get into the World, which is a big win. Assuming, of course, he is able to stay there, now that Kellhus is not supporting him with the Daimos.

[EDIT]
Oh, and also getting into the World and being kicked out of the Golden Room by Kelmomas did nothing to help Ajokli see the No-God.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 03:20:33 pm by SmilerLoki »

themerchant

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« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2018, 04:08:21 pm »
Also remember the Dunyain Ajokli killed was right in the middle of saying how Ajokli is actually hiding from his brothers and sisters as he is being hunted by them.

Plus the gods weren't against Kellhus they were against Ajokli who was possessing Kellhus. As they can't see the No-God just Ajokli trying to get into the "inside".

Cuttlefish

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« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2018, 04:33:34 pm »
Thinking more on Bakker's statement, I think I get a sense of what was the point throughout. I think the Great Ordeal was designed to fail from the getgo. Kellhus himself says to Proyas that the Consult, at one point, must win - and that what they do here rewrites the Hundred. He then explains himself to the Mutiliated as an Inverse Prophet (which, in my understanding, is supposed to be a prophet sent by mankind to the gods, as opposed to sent to mankind by the gods); he not only delivers one of the Gods, Ajokli, into defeat at the hands of the Unholy Consult (possibly even death), but also makes the Judging Eye itself acknowledge the existence of No-God. Maybe now the Gods have to take notice, realizing the power of the absence that No-God represents.
On the matter of Ajokli, he is most certainly not dead, since he possessed Cnaiur after the events in the Golden Room.

(...)

[EDIT]
Oh, and also getting into the World and being kicked out of the Golden Room by Kelmomas did nothing to help Ajokli see the No-God.

And didn't Cnaiür basically walk into No-God, as I recall?

The God, who is presumably behind the Eye (and who is somewhat at odds with the Zero-God as outlined in The Survivor's revelation), is not one of the Gods, has a different nature, and therefore there is no reason to think He (It?) was ever blind to the No-God.
[/quote]

There is no reason to think it isn't, though. We don't even quite know the nature of relationship between the Hundred and the Absolute; I think the priests suggest that he is basically a sum of them.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 04:35:43 pm by Cuttlefish »

Cuttlefish

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« Reply #36 on: August 25, 2018, 04:42:41 pm »
Also remember the Dunyain Ajokli killed was right in the middle of saying how Ajokli is actually hiding from his brothers and sisters as he is being hunted by them.

Plus the gods weren't against Kellhus they were against Ajokli who was possessing Kellhus. As they can't see the No-God just Ajokli trying to get into the "inside".

I don't know, is it explicitly stated that the Gods hunted Kellhus because of Ajokli? That might've been a factor, but I don't suppose they take kindly to a false prophet, either.

Another thing to consider for what Kellhus intends is, what are the end possibilities?

a) The Consult wins, the world is shut through genocide - he is clearly opposed to this, I think that's pretty clearly established, going as back as the Warrior-Prophet.

b) Ajokli turns the world into a living hell. He might actually be up for this; it seemed that way in the last book. Maybe not, though?

c) Status quo. The world persists, the playground of cruel gods who impose arbitrary and restrictive rules upon humanity. The "good" ending, not so good.

We don't fully understand what Kellhus's relationship with Ajokli is, but in trying to prevent the destruction of the world, he wouldn't be inclined to return things to the way they were - at least I suppose not, because it's fairly miserable for mankind and Kellhus included.

There is, IIRC, no indication during the first trilogy that he made contact with Ajokli - he states that it is No-God who speaks to him. And yet, he is assured in the knowledge that he is not damned, as he no longer considers himself a Dunyain and believes the knowledge of their own damnation makes Dunyain a threat to the Thousandfold Thought. I think there is a Kellhus in-between the forces at play, be they Ajokli, the Consult or the Hundred, who may be playing a long con on all of them.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #37 on: August 25, 2018, 04:59:24 pm »
And didn't Cnaiür basically walk into No-God, as I recall?
Indeed he did, and Cnaiur's body was destroyed, just as Kellhus's was before. But Ajokli evidently didn't die when Kellhus did, so it stands to reason that destruction of possessed body doesn't destroy him.

There is no reason to think it isn't, though.
There is in the sense that Absolute ([EDIT] it's probably better to call it the God of Gods, just so not to confuse it with the Absolute of the Dunyain) is also atemporal, so seeing the No-God at the end of TUC means the God sees/has seen it always.

I don't know, is it explicitly stated that the Gods hunted Kellhus because of Ajokli?
Not to my knowledge, no.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 05:05:05 pm by SmilerLoki »

Cuttlefish

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« Reply #38 on: August 25, 2018, 05:51:45 pm »
Indeed he did, and Cnaiur's body was destroyed, just as Kellhus's was before. But Ajokli evidently didn't die when Kellhus did, so it stands to reason that destruction of possessed body doesn't destroy him.

Ajokli wasn't inhabiting Kellhus when he died, though. And it wasn't No-God that killed Kellhus, it was a Chorae. He might've still survived the encounter, but he definitely witnessed the No-God.

And another interesting bit is that, when Cnaiür is possessed by Ajokli, he is uttering his usual boasts of vengeance against Kellhus, but when Kellhus was possessed, it seemed like it was Ajokli speaking. Unless, when Cnaiür's the host, it is Ajokli who is swearing vengeance against Kellhus.

]
There is in the sense that Absolute ([EDIT] it's probably better to call it the God of Gods, just so not to confuse it with the Absolute of the Dunyain) is also atemporal, so seeing the No-God at the end of TUC means the God sees/has seen it always.

That's an interesting thought, and the Godliest God might've chosen not to intervene in the First Apocalypse so as to not change the sequence of events leading it into seeing the No-God, and therefore becoming aware of it.

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #39 on: August 25, 2018, 06:11:33 pm »
Ajokli wasn't inhabiting Kellhus when he died, though. And it wasn't No-God that killed Kellhus, it was a Chorae. He might've still survived the encounter, but he definitely witnessed the No-God.
Yes, Ajokli was "short-circuited" by the proximity to the No-God in the form of Kelmomas. When Ajokli-Cnaiur walked into the Whirlwind, the same thing should have happened the moment he came into the No-God's direct area of influence. If he didn't, then just the body was destroyed (by the Whirlwind, without getting directly influenced by the No-God), and Ajokli can hop between them even when forced out, like he hopped from Kellhus to Cnaiur.

And another interesting bit is that, when Cnaiür is possessed by Ajokli, he is uttering his usual boasts of vengeance against Kellhus, but when Kellhus was possessed, it seemed like it was Ajokli speaking. Unless, when Cnaiür's the host, it is Ajokli who is swearing vengeance against Kellhus.
At some point I speculated that the host influences Ajokli's personality, so Ajokli-Kellhus is not completely the same as Ajokli-Cnaiur. The nature and goals of the Trickster are preserved, but some quirks of the host's personality also play a part. Like, for example, Kellhus's scheming or Cnaiur's hatred. Other people went even farther, postulating that it was the "birth" of Ajokli the Trikster and at the same time Prince of Hate as he's described in the books. It invokes atemporality in exactly the same way you did below.

That's an interesting thought, and the Godliest God might've chosen not to intervene in the First Apocalypse so as to not change the sequence of events leading it into seeing the No-God, and therefore becoming aware of it.
It's really hard to speculate about the God of Gods, since Bakker expressed very strange views on the subject through Kellhus (his talks with Proyas). I'm completely unsure whether the concept of causality, for example, is at all relevant when we're talking about the God of Gods.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 06:24:00 pm by SmilerLoki »

Cuttlefish

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« Reply #40 on: August 25, 2018, 06:35:54 pm »
Yes, Ajokli was "short-circuited" by the proximity to the No-God in the form of Kelmomas. When Ajokli-Cnaiur walked into the Whirlwind, the same thing should have happened the moment he came into the No-God's direct area of influence. If he didn't, then just the body was destroyed (by the Whirlwind, without getting directly influenced by the No-God), and Ajokli can hop between them even when forced out, like he hopped from Kellhus to Cnaiur.

Just why Ajokli stopped inhabiting Kellhus isn't clear to me; it seemed like he was shocked at being approached by something he did not see coming (though whether it was Kellhus who was shocked or Ajokli, that wasn't really clear either).

However, Cnaiür comes far more closer to No-God. This is the book section:

The Whirlwind blotted all Creation before him, blowing bodies outward and sucking bodies up as it advanced. A million blasting needles sheared the scars from his skin, leaving his windward surfaces striped in living fire. And they roiled like burning grease within him, the indignities he had suffered, the grudges and grievances he bore! Such a toll as only murder could redeem!

“SHOW THYSELF SO THAT I MIGHT STRIKE THEE!”

Skin pealed back from tissue, sloughed as parchment. Bleeding was struck into mist.
WHAT DO YOU SEE?

Even as it blinded the wind laid bare, exposing structures, devouring them, displaying the lurid layers beneath. With Hell’s own eyes, Cnaiür urs Skiötha peered up into the void and saw … nothing.
“REVEAL! REVEAL THYSELF!”
Flesh disintegrated. A vicious black climbed over all things, grew numb.

WHAT AM I?


"With hell's own eyes", he looks at No-God, and sees nothing... which is in keeping with the idea that the Gods can't see him. But unless Ajokli is the runt of the litter, the god of stupidity or the intellect of gods work in different ways, he should be able to realize something is up with the No-God.

Assuming he didn't die, of course. Unlike Kellhus's death, there is no indication that he actually left Cnaiür at this point. But that's a rather useless argument, because Bakker's prose was frustratingly vague towards the end of this book.


At some point I speculated that the host influences Ajokli's personality, so Ajokli-Kellhus is not completely the same as Ajokli-Cnaiur. The nature and goals of the Trickster are preserved, but some quirks of the host's personality also play a part. Like, for example, Kellhus's scheming or Cnaiur's hatred. Other people went even farther, postulating that it was the "birth" of Ajokli the Trikster and at the same time Prince of Hate as he described in the books. It invokes atemporality in exactly the same way you did below.

That's a bit anti-climactic, isn't it, that a God should insert himself into the story in like, two chapters of the book, and be born through it? I'm more inclined to believe that Ajokli is better disposed towards connecting to Kellhus and Cnaiür because his realm is deception and hatred, than being born out of them. Though he could perhaps be an amalgation of the two, I don't find it likely that he gained his definining attributes through a few minutes of contact to two mortals (if they are, at all!)

It's really hard to speculate about the God of Gods, since Bakker expressed very strange views on the subject through Kellhus (his talks with Proyas). I'm completely unsure whether the concept of causality, for example, is at all relevant when we're talking about the God of Gods.

Well, we can discern a few things. Both Kellhus and Koringhus, possessing probably the two greatest intellects in the series, grasp the nature of the God of Gods through distinct means, and their understanding of it seems to match each other. Both of them, for example, point out that the idea it has human features (as in, emotions), is faulty.


SmilerLoki

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« Reply #41 on: August 25, 2018, 07:12:59 pm »
Just why Ajokli stopped inhabiting Kellhus isn't clear to me; it seemed like he was shocked at being approached by something he did not see coming (though whether it was Kellhus who was shocked or Ajokli, that wasn't really clear either).
The Gods cannot exist in the presence of the No-God or its seed, in this case Kelmomas. It's the same as with the White-Luck Warrior being killed both times when Kelmomas appeared nearby in a crucial moment. The White-Luck Warrior required the divine, a facet of Yatwer, to function. It's that facet that was exorcised by Kelmomas. Ajokli was exorcised from Kellhus the same way.

I'll try to find a better answer in Bakker's posts. Right now I can give you confirmation that Ajokli is alive and also an answer to your question about him inferring the existence of the No-God:
http://www.second-apocalypse.com/index.php?topic=2278.msg36488#msg36488

[EDIT] Here it is:
Quote from: R. Scott Bakker
Kelmomas is the No-God, and as such invisible to the Gods. He stands outside the outside. This is why he short-circuits both incarnations of the White-Luck Warrior. And this is why he short-circuits Ajokli/Kellhus. This is why only Kellhus is salted.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/6r3hba/unholy_consultation_r_scott_bakker_bares_the_soul/dl24wvn/

However, Cnaiür comes far more closer to No-God.
Not at all. When the Whirlwind is active, the No-God is high up in the sky, significantly higher than a sorcerer can walk on echoes of the ground. Cnaiur approached the Whirlwind on foot. He was much farther from the Sarcophagus than Kellhus was from Kelmomas in the Golden Room.

That's a bit anti-climactic, isn't it, that a God should insert himself into the story in like, two chapters of the book, and be born through it?
I, too, dislike it, but that is not an argument.

Though he could perhaps be an amalgation of the two, I don't find it likely that he gained his definining attributes through a few minutes of contact to two mortals (if they are, at all!
It is, though, the only time we see a God enter the World wholly and possessing mortals as his vessels.

Well, we can discern a few things. Both Kellhus and Koringhus, possessing probably the two greatest intellects in the series, grasp the nature of the God of Gods through distinct means
I strongly dispute this. However smart they might be, being finite compared to infinity means they are infinitely far away from grasping the God of Gods. They might understand the concept better than other characters, true, but grasping the nature of the God is another thing entirely.

and their understanding of it seems to match each other
I also feel that their understanding of the God differs significantly, just as their actions are not the same. Koringhus embraces Zero, while Kellhus - well, we don't know what exactly Kellhus did, but my money's on Metagnosis, which is a fractional thing, infinitely removed from the God.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2018, 07:19:31 pm by SmilerLoki »

SmilerLoki

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« Reply #42 on: August 25, 2018, 09:27:09 pm »
Oh, and there is another thing I forgot to mention. Not one of the Gods, atemporal beings, can die (at least not in a straightforward way). Dying for them would mean never existing in the first place, which would result in a completely different series. So the fact that Ajokli was mentioned in the past indicates that he's still alive in the present. By extension that would mean that Ajokli still retains all of his influence in the Outside while being in the World.

themerchant

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« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2018, 03:40:56 am »
It's not stated in explicitly in the text but to me it seems obvious the gods are hunting Ajokli (as kellhus) that's why they say he is a demon the deep, it's also explained in the Sorweel WLW sequences when he speaks to his mother and she explains sometimes a hunger from the deep escapes into the world etc, then the Dunyain deducing that the gods are hunting Ajokli and he is hiding from them.

dragharrow

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« Reply #44 on: September 13, 2018, 01:58:34 pm »
Sorry to go back to the beginning of the thread but I have to hear more about this!

This is a quote from the Con. Bakker confirmed his death, but still must have some sort of role to play. I started the thread because if like to hear everyone's thought on what this could possibly constitute. Here's a few of my thoughts I've had on it...

... Oh, and Bakker did confirm he is not in the Outside. Maybe one can't take Bakker for his word and he is wily when answering questions. But, for this thread, he is dead and not done and isn't on the Outside. What ya think about it?

What? He did? Kellhus is not in the outside?

There is zero chance that Kellhus getting burned up by a Chorae would be enough to deliver him to total oblivion. Plus Bakker saying he's not done means that's not really an option anyway. So if he's not in the outside then that confirms that he's got a dirty trick going on with the Daimos or the Ciphrang heads or whatever.

That's really interesting. When did Bakker confirm that? I had totally assumed that Kellhus was falling on the hells as a conquering hunger like he says.

I guess that still leaves that he's cheated his way into some kind of limbo or personal demesne but even that would be in the outside I would think. So hard Daimos trickery that keeps his soul on the inside seems to be by far the most likely option by far. Weird