"Kellhus is dead, but not done."

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MSJ

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« on: February 15, 2018, 07:21:27 pm »
This is a quote from the Con. Bakker confirmed his death, but still must have some sort of role to play. I started the thread because if like to hear everyone's thought on what this could possibly constitute. Here's a few of my thoughts I've had on it.

Most likely: Kellhus is simply in the other decapitant. And might have simply put off the possibility of damnation for the time being.

My crazy theory: He's in "a" decapitant. The mysterious deaths of "I forget the year but a poster here remarkably found them in the glossary", and he created a "network" to move around with the decapitants. Kinda like Shae, but not. Basically, I think he has more than the two decapitants and has strategically placed them.

I don't find the above likely, its just a thought. But, I'd love to hear other idea's on what this could possibly mean. Oh, and Bakker did confirm he is not in the Outside. Maybe one can't take Bakker for his word and he is wily when answering questions. But, for this thread, he is dead and not done and isn't on the Outside. What ya think about it?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2018, 07:25:21 pm by MSJ »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2018, 08:14:44 pm »
Really thinking on it ... "Dead but not done"

Difficult to say. Probably something along two fronts. One is that 'not done' means that he has plans and machinations in the works that are still in play. The other front is the idea that Ajokli can't find him in the outside. So 'not done' might also be (either/or) that he's in limbo somewhere. Limbo could be 'the space between the gods'/'oblivion', could be be ascended into Absolute status above and beyond Ajokli and his Outside (Outside the Outside, as it were), or it could be something of him existing in the mundane world somehow (Pokemon Heads, though seemingly ridiculous, are a compelling option).
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

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« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2018, 08:23:43 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
that he's in limbo somewhere. Limbo could be 'the space between the gods'/'oblivion', could be be ascended into Absolute status above and beyond Ajokli and his Outside (Outside the Outside, as it were)

I love this. It also fits with my idea of Kelhus having created a "niche" where he basically hiding from Ajokli, gods and all. I've put forth that idea before.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wolfdrop

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« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2018, 11:41:25 am »
My gut response is that he's in the other Decapitant, based on evidence, but I can't really see it being the case. Logistically, that's now a hanging prison attached to a salt statue right at the top of the world's most unassailable fortress and in the hands of the Consult.

When Malowebi got the chop the Decapitant took on his appearance and he it's. I was guessing this was the case with Kellhus and Ajokli. The other Decapitant is mentioned once as having a "line of iron horns jutting from black hair" and I'm sure once more it's noted as specifically having four horns. So that would seem to explain the appearance swap, with Ajokli taking Kellhus's face before revealing his own one when it erupts into flames and he fully takes over.

But something about that theory just doesn't sit right with me.

I'm inclined to believe it's more his plans and machinations the "dead but not done" relates to, but tbh I'm hoping for baby Kellhus as an Alia analogue being the case...

Wilshire

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« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2018, 12:34:49 pm »
as an Alia analogue being the case...

Its Akka's baby, not Kellhus. Give the poor old man some credit - call it baby Kellhus is like when Kellhus named Serwe's son Moenghus. Its just mean! :P

But also yes, Alia resurgence would be great.
One of the other conditions of possibility.

MSJ

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« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2018, 03:26:18 pm »
I think Wolfdrop is talking about the actual "baby Kellhus" theory. You know, how Sark said, " sometimes souls bounce and the old man ends up behind the eyes of a babe.". That's what he meant I believe, that Kellhus is soul actually went into Akka and Mimara's baby.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2018, 03:42:12 pm »
I think it is highly plausible that Kellhus soul is simply too "strong" to simply be devoured by a ciphrang, captured by one of the 100, and certainly not balanced enough to find Oblivion.  So, he is probably there, somewhere, in the Outside now, doing who the hell knows what.  I'd think that's what "dead but not done" would mean to me.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2018, 03:47:55 pm »
Quote from:  H
I think it is highly plausible that Kellhus soul is simply too "strong" to simply be devoured by a ciphrang, captured by one of the 100, and certainly not balanced enough to find Oblivion.  So, he is probably there, somewhere, in the Outside now, doing who the hell knows what.  I'd think that's what "dead but not done" would mean to me.

Exactly, my "niche" theory you've seen me tout. That the tree and the priest is actually his self, a place he cannot be touched. Think about it, it has no resemblance to the descriptions of the Outside we get in TGO.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

H

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« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2018, 04:35:28 pm »
Exactly, my "niche" theory you've seen me tout. That the tree and the priest is actually his self, a place he cannot be touched. Think about it, it has no resemblance to the descriptions of the Outside we get in TGO.

Right, highly plausible.  Also consider things such as the Head-on-a-Pole, which, my own pet theory would "predict" only protects him being alive, but speaks to the fact that Kellhus (at least) was able to "inhabit" the Outside in a different way than anyone else we know of, or at least not be subject to it in the same way.  So, considering he managed to at least learn a great deal of the Daimos, if not Master it, means that he must know the peril of his soul and so him having some kind of contingency plan in place is plausible.

There, of course, is the Moe the Elder arguement, that Kellhus could not plan for everything, and planning for failure is a waste, because you've already failed at that point, but I think Bakker's comment that Kellhus "isn't done" belies that as implausible.  Kellhus was definitely not perfect, but I think he was iteratively better than Moe.  There were just things he couldn't know and couldn't know he didn't know.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Doulou

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« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2018, 06:00:31 pm »
Bakker said the following in regard to souls -

"The problems souls encounter in the Outside is that they're puny, and so find themselves trapped in intentional realities belonging to infernal and divine agencies. This is why powerful souls (think Gin'yursis) often carve out different fates after death."

It will be interesting to see what Kellhus spirit is capable of, he has immense intelligence, but Bakker has specifically said the Dunyain are spiritually weak.

Right, highly plausible.  Also consider things such as the Head-on-a-Pole, which, my own pet theory would "predict" only protects him being alive, but speaks to the fact that Kellhus (at least) was able to "inhabit" the Outside in a different way than anyone else we know of, or at least not be subject to it in the same way.  So, considering he managed to at least learn a great deal of the Daimos, if not Master it, means that he must know the peril of his soul and so him having some kind of contingency plan in place is plausible.

I like this train of thought. I think having actually walked the infernal deep Kellhus we can safely assume he has used this insight to "avoid" going to hell. 

MSJ

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« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2018, 12:22:03 am »
Nice thoughts Doulou! Really fits with my "niche" thoughts. I'd still like to think those mysterious deaths and the decapitants. Which is more wishful thinking.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2018, 12:00:13 pm »
Well, the Glossary "head swapping" incident sure seems like a tantalizing clue, but we really don't know what it means, if anything.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasűrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

MSJ

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« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2018, 11:25:41 pm »
Well, the Glossary "head swapping" incident sure seems like a tantalizing clue, but we really don't know what it means, if anything.

Correct. But that combined with the series of deaths, is the stuff of theory legend!!!!!
« Last Edit: February 20, 2018, 11:15:49 am by H »
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

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« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2018, 02:37:05 pm »
as an Alia analogue being the case...

But also yes, Alia resurgence would be great.

Except, sadly, on the AMA Bakker was somehow surprised regarding the Qirri/Mimara's baby Spice/Alia connection :(.

...

Welcome to the Second Apocalypse, Doulou. Apologies, glad you finally made it ;).

Well, the Glossary "head swapping" incident sure seems like a tantalizing clue, but we really don't know what it means, if anything.

Correct. But that combined with the series of deaths, is the stuff of theory legend!!!!!

Honestly - not reflecting any impressions Bakker's given me about TNG, truly in nerdanel territory here - FB makes a great case for Kellhus collecting Decapitants and Malowebi's tale explicitly shows a head being swapped out to no one's notice at least once. Shortly after reading TUC draft (or even TGO ARC) MG even suggested that Kellhus escaped in Ciphrang-Malowebi. It'd be extremely fun to read about Kellhus escaping death - albeit for a time - in the various Ciphrang-Characters he's littered around akin to Seswatha forestalling his own death via the Grasping/Mandate.

EDIT: But to reaffirm, I believe Bakker was more suggesting that, to paraphrase myself, the Ministrate has a scroll that reads "break, in event of my death" from Kellhus. I really want a Ministrate Atrocity Tale at least. The Winter Soldier of Earwa stories.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2018, 02:41:40 pm by Madness »
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MisterGuyMan

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« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2018, 11:22:42 pm »
Your lack of faith in Kellhus is disturbing.

I'm firmly planting my flag in the camp of Kellhus still being the major player.  Here's why.

1.  Kellhus saw himself within the inverse fire, not as fodder, but descending as hunger.
2.  Nauir was described as a Prince of Hell by the judging eye because some souls were too powerful.
3.  All the gods exist outside of time in some fashion.  So once you're a God, you've always been a God since even before the beginning of the series.
4.  Nothing that has happened so far, contradicts TTT as outlined between Kellhus and his father Moe.
5.  In the conversations between Khell and the unnamed outside entity, the outside entity says he wars with the God and to draw him out he needs to raze the fields.  Khell says he is the one who tends the fields (paraphrasing here).

So all signs point to Kellhus being some demon.  He's a hunger in the outside, not food.  So that means he's *always* been around.  I suspect he's the outside entity Kellhus has been communing with and has been using his mortal past self as a tool.  Moe's version of TTT specifically outlined how premeditated disasters would keep piling on TGO.  Kellhus sees farther but we're never actually told that he would reverse the disasters for TGO.  I believe in his own Dunyain way, Kellhus, as an Outside entity, would do what he does and use anything and everything including himself.  The endgoal is to take down the God.

I think of the meta clues of the series.  If the last series is just the downfall of mankind, there's no narrative there.  It's just losing and there's no point in extending the series.  Since we know Bakker was going to end the series with AE, the closest way to end the series while having leeway to extend it by a few books is a bootstrap paradox.  Originally the series ends with Kellhus completing a temporal loop, becoming the God he's always been the entire series.  The extended series draws this process out.