"Kellhus is dead, but not done."

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Wilshire

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« Reply #15 on: March 19, 2018, 02:32:29 pm »
Your lack of faith in Kellhus is disturbing.
Good. ;)

1.  Kellhus saw himself within the inverse fire, not as fodder, but descending as hunger.
Assuming it was Kellhus doing the seeing and not Ajokli, blah blah blah, then yeah that's pretty strong evidence that his future in the Outside (should his soul get there) would not be one of the nameless tortured souls.

2.  Nauir was described as a Prince of Hell by the judging eye because some souls were too powerful.
Described as Prince of Hell certainly. Not to prove or disprove anything, but I'm wondering generally if there was a 'because' clearly written in the book? The two halves of the above point are true independently, I'm just wondering if they were ever presented together like that.

3.  All the gods exist outside of time in some fashion.  So once you're a God, you've always been a God since even before the beginning of the series.
Pretty straightforward there - as straightforward as a-temporal beings existing in a linear time universe are straightforward, lol.

4.  Nothing that has happened so far, contradicts TTT as outlined between Kellhus and his father Moe.
Any chance you can clarify this? What TTT was outline and not contradicted?

IIRC, TTT as presented by Moenghus was immediately co-opted by Kellhus, so in that sense Moeghus' TTT was destroyed utterly from the second Kellhus entered Kyudia. I'm guessing you meant that in a more general sense - so what generally is TTT you're referring too?


5.  In the conversations between Khell and the unnamed outside entity, the outside entity says he wars with the God and to draw him out he needs to raze the fields.  Khell says he is the one who tends the fields (paraphrasing here).
I always took this to contradict your main point here. It seemed to me that Kellhus' "but I tend the fields" was a defiant statement - basically saying "You cannot burn the fields as long as I am tending them".

But that Unnamed Entity is curious. It would be strange, from a plot/worldbuilding/thematic sense, to add in such a character with no background into book 6, not mention it again until book 8 and have it be some random God bent of usurping The God. Doesn't make sense. It almost certainly has to be someone (something) we've seen already.

Moe's version of TTT specifically outlined how premeditated disasters would keep piling on TGO.  Kellhus sees farther but we're never actually told that he would reverse the disasters for TGO.
Same question above, is that really what Moe tells us about TTT? I don't remember that being the case. I thought all we really got was something like 'the holy was was necessary to unite humanity under one banner so that an army could be raised to contest the Consult before the No God awakens'.

Not that this diminishes your overall point though.

I suspect he's the outside entity Kellhus has been communing with and has been using his mortal past self as a tool. 
...
I believe in his own Dunyain way, Kellhus, as an Outside entity, would do what he does and use anything and everything including himself.  The endgoal is to take down the God.
I think that conclusion follows the assumptions laid out above, and if this is how things turn out I won't be disappointed.

I do think a slight correction though: taking down God is a stepping stone. Kellhus' goal is to become The Absolute self moving soul, and the only way to do that is to have no darkness preceding him, which means he must become The God (therefore killing it to replace)


I think of the meta clues of the series.  If the last series is just the downfall of mankind, there's no narrative there.  It's just losing and there's no point in extending the series.  Since we know Bakker was going to end the series with AE, the closest way to end the series while having leeway to extend it by a few books is a bootstrap paradox.  Originally the series ends with Kellhus completing a temporal loop, becoming the God he's always been the entire series.  The extended series draws this process out.

I've been thinking about the story structure, or 'meta clues' a lot lately. There's a lot of theories out there that are at least internally consistent, but that don't really fit into what I'd describe as the theme (or worldbuilding, or plot development ... whatever).

I will correct one thing there though, the series was never to end with TAE - he only ever said he'd be satisfied being able to tell the story through TAE even if he never got to do the rest. There was always TNG (in its initial inception, TSA was a 3 book series, TNG as book 3).

For what its worth, I think you're right that if the story is planned to continue on as it has been, placing Kellhus in the Outside is probably the most viable way to continue on. That said, I suspect that the final few books in TNG series will be structured vastly differently to the previous books. More of an extended epilogue than anything else. Its for that reason that I don't believe we'll ever know who the Unnamed Entity is, or what Kellhus' final fate truly was. Again, that doesn't make your conclusion any less valid, I just don't see us getting an answer.

Cheers MGM :). Nice to read you again.
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« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2018, 10:53:09 am »
I always took this to contradict your main point here. It seemed to me that Kellhus' "but I tend the fields" was a defiant statement - basically saying "You cannot burn the fields as long as I am tending them".

But that Unnamed Entity is curious. It would be strange, from a plot/worldbuilding/thematic sense, to add in such a character with no background into book 6, not mention it again until book 8 and have it be some random God bent of usurping The God. Doesn't make sense. It almost certainly has to be someone (something) we've seen already.

I still think Ajokli is the most likely suspect here.

Wasn't it stated somewhere else that the other 99 war with Ajokli?  Or him with them?

I mean, even at face value, the idea for one of the 100 to seize control of the "granary" makes perfect sense as does the idea that it would be Ajokli, since something like hell is his domain.  Unfortunately, I don't think we'll ever get anything more than circumstantial evidence on this.
“I am a warrior of ages, Anasûrimbor . . . ages. I have dipped my nimil in a thousand hearts. I have ridden both against and for the No-God in the great wars that authored this wilderness. I have scaled the ramparts of great Golgotterath, watched the hearts of High Kings break for fury.” -Cet’ingira

Wilshire

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« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2018, 11:27:50 am »
Ajokli is the other obvious contender for the title.

I really wish we had more info to go with though.
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MSJ

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« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2018, 04:13:31 pm »
If its Ajokli then it leans credence to Ajokli is Kellhus theories. Kellhus is speaking to what look likes himself in those scenes.

I'm still sticking to my guns and say its Kellhus's little niche hidden away from all the Gods. Remember, once he dies and becomes a God/Ciphrang then he can affect events all throughout time. It almost fits too well for the TT, for it not to be Kellhus. Though, its more likely wishful thinking.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

Wilshire

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« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2018, 04:21:09 pm »
Its compelling, though to me more if Kellhus doesn't know its himself.

I'm not sure Ciphrang operate on the whole a-temporal scale. I always thought that was part of their lesser-demon-ness. Similar to how I don't think simply being in the Outside (Kellhus via Diamos) lets whoever it is to see all of time. I generally like the idea of certain souls becoming powerful enough in life to be Ciphrang once they die, but there's got to be something that separates the various 'power levels' of the outside. Controlling a whole corner of subjective reality space is one thing certainly, but seeing fully/deeply into the Inside and seeing 'all time', as well as being able to manipulate it in whatever fashion, all seem like things I'd ascribe to only Gods rather than all Ciphrang.
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« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2018, 04:28:24 pm »
Quote from:  Wilshire
Its compelling, though to me more if Kellhus doesn't know its himself.

Of course. And in book Kellhus definitely had no clue. The tend the fields line, is a hint that it could be true.

Quote
I'm not sure Ciphrang operate on the whole a-temporal scale. I always thought that was part of their lesser-demon-ness. Similar to how I don't think simply being in the Outside (Kellhus via Diamos) lets whoever it is to see all of time. I generally like the idea of certain souls becoming powerful enough in life to be Ciphrang once they die, but there's got to be something that separates the various 'power levels' of the outside. Controlling a whole corner of subjective reality space is one thing certainly, but seeing fully/deeply into the Inside and seeing 'all time', as well as being able to manipulate it in whatever fashion, all seem like things I'd ascribe to only Gods rather than all Ciphrang.

I agree. But, if Bakker describes Kellhus's use of sorcery as to that of the God, he is definitely more than a Ciphrang. I'd say, his many trips through the Outside via the Diamos he definitely made contingencies. Now, if he's hidden in the Outside, a corner to his self, I don't know about how the timeline thing would work. Definitely interesting to think on.
“No. I am your end. Before your eyes I will put your seed to the knife. I will quarter your carcass and feed it to the dogs. Your bones I will grind to dust and cast to the winds. I will strike down those who speak your name or the name of your fathers, until ‘Yursalka’ becomes as meaningless as infant babble. I will blot you out, hunt down your every trace! The track of your life has come to me,

TheCulminatingApe

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« Reply #21 on: March 30, 2018, 07:17:51 pm »
The most mundane interpretation would be that he is dead and gone, but 'lives on' through his influence on others as a religious figure.  I suspect there's more to it than that though.

Difficult to say. Probably something along two fronts. One is that 'not done' means that he has plans and machinations in the works that are still in play. The other front is the idea that Ajokli can't find him in the outside. So 'not done' might also be (either/or) that he's in limbo somewhere. Limbo could be 'the space between the gods'/'oblivion', could be be ascended into Absolute status above and beyond Ajokli and his Outside (Outside the Outside, as it were), or it could be something of him existing in the mundane world somehow (Pokemon Heads, though seemingly ridiculous, are a compelling option).
Probably both.  Suspect he has set things in motion that are still in play, and that whilst physically dead, his soul is still active as an independent player.

Bakker said the following in regard to souls -

"The problems souls encounter in the Outside is that they're puny, and so find themselves trapped in intentional realities belonging to infernal and divine agencies. This is why powerful souls (think Gin'yursis) often carve out different fates after death."

It will be interesting to see what Kellhus spirit is capable of, he has immense intelligence, but Bakker has specifically said the Dunyain are spiritually weak.

1.  Kellhus saw himself within the inverse fire, not as fodder, but descending as hunger.
2.  Nauir was described as a Prince of Hell by the judging eye because some souls were too powerful.

So all signs point to Kellhus being some demon.  He's a hunger in the outside, not food. 

I think of the meta clues of the series.  If the last series is just the downfall of mankind, there's no narrative there.  It's just losing and there's no point in extending the series. 

This seems the most likely explanation to me.  There's also a point made by Proyas (can't remember whether its in TGO or TUC) something along the lines of "Kellhus is responsible for more deaths than anyone who has ever lived".  He's also got millions to transgress scripture, and many thousand to engage in Sranc eating and cannibalism. 
Mimara had 'never seen one so damned' as Cnaiur.  I would say Kellhus is damned on another level of magnitude.
Spiritually, the books imply strongly that he feels love, and may not be the typical Dunyain in this respect.
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Cuttlefish

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« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2018, 08:27:59 pm »
Spiritually, the books imply strongly that he feels love, and may not be the typical Dunyain in this respect.

The Dunyain all feel love though; at the very least, emotions. Moenghus confirms it that the Dunyain have been unable to completely breed out emotions, and we have examples like the Survivor, who saves the crab handed boy despite he is a defective, because it's his son. Kellhus is clearer in this respect, because so many years later, he has completely abandoned the Dunyain ideology; they all have after contact with the outside world, realizing that it was all built on a lie. Why else would the Mutiliated strive to save their souls, when for a thousand years, they've denied their very existence? Because they're afraid!

Wilshire

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« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2018, 03:41:44 pm »
Re: Mutilated Machinations

Just want to throw out that they might not give a damn about their souls, or even believe in them, but simply belive the shortest path to being a self moving soul is to remove the original movers from the game.
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Cuttlefish

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« Reply #24 on: August 07, 2018, 06:40:06 pm »
Re: Mutilated Machinations

Just want to throw out that they might not give a damn about their souls, or even believe in them, but simply belive the shortest path to being a self moving soul is to remove the original movers from the game.

I don't believe so; they seemed genuine, when they believed witnessing his own suffering in the Inverse Fire could make Kellhus defect. Clearly, they thought it is traumatizing enough to influence another Dunyain.

Wilshire

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« Reply #25 on: August 07, 2018, 06:53:44 pm »
A Dunyain more than any other would take advantage of the sharpest tool with which to make their point, but that doesn't suddenly mean they shed two thousand years of conditioning. Ultimately, every Dunyain we see is the same. They all pursue what they believe to be the shortest path to the Absolute. Moenghus picked TTT, died, Kellhus picked magic, died, Koringhus typical dunyain stuff but encountered TJE, died, Mutilated picked Tekne, some died and some lived.

The Boy is the only one left untested, but it appears that the Mutilated (by happenstance or virtue) appear to be the only ones left on the path, making theirs the shortest lol.
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themerchant

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« Reply #26 on: August 09, 2018, 10:42:02 pm »
Perhaps Kellhus has managed to get Ajokli stuck in Earwa and at the same time got sent to hell and supplants him.

TaoHorror

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« Reply #27 on: August 10, 2018, 02:27:57 am »
Perhaps Kellhus has managed to get Ajokli stuck in Earwa and at the same time got sent to hell and supplants him.

That would be wicked!
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« Reply #28 on: August 10, 2018, 04:48:42 am »
Perhaps Kellhus has managed to get Ajokli stuck in Earwa and at the same time got sent to hell and supplants him.

That would be wicked!
Kellhus, upon arriving in Hell:

"Listen up! I am here to chew bubblegum and feast on souls, and I am all out of bubblegum!"
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« Reply #29 on: August 10, 2018, 02:25:12 pm »
Perhaps Kellhus has managed to get Ajokli stuck in Earwa and at the same time got sent to hell and supplants him.

That would be wicked!
Kellhus, upon arriving in Hell:

"Listen up! I am here to chew bubblegum and feast on souls, and I am all out of bubblegum!"

Roddy Ronnie Piper - RIP
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